EU referendum - in or out?

[juneau]

I used to be completely pro-Europe, but I'm now leaning firmly towards 'out' and the national mood seems to have switched that way too. So how would you vote?

[strangehumour]

Out

[namechangeparents]

In.

If I knew it was all going to being spent on our NHS, schools, benefits, army etc I would just be so much happier

but it won't. It will go into tax cuts for the rich and for businesses.

Surely if the EU was truly accountable to ordinary people, it would follow our priorities, and there would be no need to tell us what its "political priorities" are, or to spend millions on promoting them to us

UK government departments and quangos publish annual reports and strategy and priority documents every year. Take a look at Ofcom, Ofgem, the CMA to name but a few.

[Winterbiscuit]

Part of the taxpayers money we send the EU comes back with strings attached. Instead of the NHS and other priorities we have to spend it on what the EU deems our priorities should be. So I don't see how remaining in the EU is going to help the NHS, schools etc.

[twofingerstoGideon]

Definitely IN.

I am heartily sick of the misinformation being peddled by Brexiters under the heading of 'Facts'.
In particular, their assertion that money saved 'could' be spent on NHS is meaningless rhetoric. Of course it 'could' be spent on the NHS. It 'could' also be spent on buying David Cameron a flotilla of yachts or giving everyone in the UK a free cream bun every day for the rest of their lives. The NHS is being dismantled for ideological reasons - not because money has been diverted to the EU. It is being deliberately under-funded, leading to low staff morale and putting it under massive strain. We have a shortage of GPs, midwives and other HCPs. Even if every bit of the money going to the EU was invested in the NHS, how long would it take to build new hospitals/health centres and how would these be staffed? The current government, which includes many people who favour Brexit, is cutting bursaries for student nurses/radiographers /midwives etc. which is likely to impact further on NHS staffing.
If we leave the EU, we're not going to wake up in some magical fairy land the next day. It will take years to extricate ourselves fully and would require leaders with real vision to build a better post-EU Britain. Who would these people be? Boris Johnson? Iain Duncan Smith? Michael Gove? No thanks.

[Winterbiscuit]

The Remain side has put forward some very spurious information and propaganda, such as Osborne's claim that each household would be £4300 worse off

How many EU politicians are you familiar with and trust? How will you get rid of the ones you don't like, particularly with the far right on the rise? Do you really think the EU cares about the NHS?

I'm also unimpressed by the systematic scaremongering from EU-funded organisations. EU Paid €160 Million to Pro-Remain Groups

[lavenderdoilly]

Good job the 350 million a week claim is utterly without doubt.
PS. It is bollocks in case you weren't checking.

[Winterbiscuit]

Yes I'm aware that figure has been put under scrutiny lavender, but I was just giving the other side to twofingers' comment "I am heartily sick of the misinformation being peddled by Brexiters under the heading of 'Facts'." It works both ways.

[lavenderdoilly]

As long as we are clear that bollocks figures are bollocks whoever tries to spin them.

[vichill]

in

[twofingerstoGideon]

I'm well aware that both sides are spinning like mad. However, this is how the Brexiters are presenting their 'argument'.

Leaflet

I haven't seen a similar leaflet from the remain campaign that presents opinion/spin as 'FACT' quite so blatantly. It is their assumption that we're totally fucking stupid that rankles with me.

[Winterbiscuit]

"I haven't seen a similar leaflet from the remain campaign"

Here it is

Britain Stronger in Europe sent out leaflets as above, with the only sign of who it was from being "BSIE" in very small letters on the return address.

[twofingerstoGideon]

I can't read any of the words on the right hand side, but from what I can see on the left, they are (very selective) quotes from The Times, London School of Economics, the AA, etc. (ie. named sources). It's spin; there's no doubt about that, but what I don't see is any assertion that these are FACTS.

Do you not see a difference between using quotes and a big read headline that says 'THE FACTS'? I think these distinctions are very important. As far as I'm concerned, this is not a simple difference of semantics - both are propoganda, but the word 'facts' is commonly definied as 'a thing that is known or proved to be true', and I think we all know that the old 'costs Britain £350 million a week' claim is anything but a fact.

[twofingerstoGideon]

'Big red' not 'big read'!

Perhaps, Winterbiscuit, the distinctions I mention above don't matter to you. I think that's what the Brexit campaign is hoping for.

[fryingtoday]

Out

[Winterbiscuit]

twofingers sorry it's not easy to read. I've looked on several websites but can't find a larger copy of the leaflet.

Printing a leaflet with quotes to back up your cause is basically asserting the statements as fact. It doesn't have to say "FACT" after it to be doing that.

Unless you're saying that the remainers may have presented quotes on their leaflet that they didn't believe were facts?

[bkgirl]

Was In up to now but have definitely gone Out.
I just cannot get past our elected representatives getting 15 mins to read the TTIP docs, they go in, are not allowed a pen, cannot take pics and cannot quote directly what they read.
Again these are our ELECTED representatives being stopped by UNELECTED EU officials.
Why would I vote to give these unelected officials more power?
Why should I trust them?
Frankly right now they are trying to push through a secret agreement (TTIP)which will wreck our schools, hospitals and councils. F@ck em.
Nothing is as bad as living under a dictatorship. That's how Hitler started.
Do I trust them to not start a euro army and send my kids to die.
No. They are sneaky and look at the way they bullied and crucified Greece.
Here is an ELECTED irish MEP attempting to see the TTIP docs - its shocking.

I am voting Leave.

[bkgirl]

Get this! Our opinion doesn't really count anyway. What happened to democracy?

David Allen Green ‏@DavidAllenGreen on twitter
The EU referendum result, remember, is not legally binding on the government. It is advisory...

[FarAwayHills]

Excellent insight Bkgirl on the madness of EU bureaucracy.

[Winterbiscuit]

The EU referendum result, remember, is not legally binding on the government. It is advisory...



So they will still consider leaving the EU when the result is "remain"?

The EU have ignored referendum results before now... surely our country hasn't yet been brainwashed into thinking it's OK to do the same?!

[bkgirl]

The problem is will they stay in if the vote is out?

[Winterbiscuit]

Yes bkgirl and I've seen quite a few people concerned about that possibility. It's just interesting turning it around, to show how unequal it is...

[wiltingfast]

They might do what they did in Ireland and make you all vote again

[JudyCoolibar]

In

[TheWitchesofIzalith]

I just cannot get past our elected representatives getting 15 mins to read the TTIP docs, they go in, are not allowed a pen, cannot take pics and cannot quote directly what they read

I am now struggling with this too. I was firmly 'IN' up until I found out about this, I thought myself relatively well-informed on all the actual facts (not spin or scaremongering) in the arguments for Leave or Remain, I've watched the debates, read the BBC's Reality Check etc....and I didn't even know about this TTIP, never mind the fact that it's being carried out in such secrecy and without elected MEPs even having a say in it.

Why is it being conducted like this? Why are no elected MEPs having a say in it? Does this sort of secret dealing happen often? What other deals have been engineered by the EU in this way that I probably don't know about?

This has definitely undermined my decision to vote 'IN' I will admit.

[Topcraft]

This is my very first message on Mumsnet. I'm posting, choked up with emotion after what happened to lovely Jo Cox yesterday - who spent many years in Brussels working first for Glenys Kinnock and then Oxfam. She inspired us all to get involved and fight for our beliefs.

So with that in mind, I really wanted to give some explanations on how trade agreements are negotiated to give some context to the "secret reading room" stories.

These are facts with my explanations. Feel free to do with them as you will. I have no vote as been here for 15 years. Please use yours mindfully!

There are three main stages in the negotiating process. First, the Member States of the EU - so the elected governments - give the Commission a detailed mandate to open negotiations with a third country. The mandate gives the Commission its guidelines as to the objectives and scope of the negotiations.

The second stage is the negotiation itself - so meetings between trade negotiators, swapping texts, consulting stakeholders etc. That's where we are now on TTIP, for example. Inevitably, such negotiations don't take place in the full glare of publicity - they never have and never will. Not in any country, to the best of my knowledge, so nothing to do with the EU. But there have been some steps forward in increasing transparency during the negotiations in the EU - and that's where the reading room in the European Parliament fits in, for example.

The final stage is the decision on whether to conclude the agreement that the Commission has negotiated. That decisions falls to the 28 Member States - and depending on national constitutions, the national parliaments may have to ratify too. The directly elected European Parliament has to agree as well. So that's - at least - a double democratic guarantee.

"Unelected officials" can't decide anything. And the mandate given by Member States to the Commission requires any agreement to respect and continue to protect public services, like the NHS.

But if Member States were to disagree with what the Commission negotiates, then they can block it. And so can the European Parliament.