EU referendum - in or out?

[juneau]

I used to be completely pro-Europe, but I'm now leaning firmly towards 'out' and the national mood seems to have switched that way too. So how would you vote?

[SnowBells]

Do people actually realize that leaving the EU will not actually grant the UK 'independence'?

Unless you think the UK can be self-sufficient, i.e. no trading with other countries in the EU, you will still be held down by EU laws (just like you must abide by US laws when selling to the US).

Then, you will be forced to abide by those EU rules without having any say in the matter because you're not part of the EU.

People say, "they need us more than we need them", because we're a net importer of EU products. They need our business.

Apparently.

Is it really them who need our business though rather than us needing their products?!? What will happen when the products we have become accustomed to are no longer available for the price we're used to?

Just think about that for a minute.

[wiltingfast]

Yes but it's all run by the elected politicians. Who send over their chosen commissioner. And it doesn't have the power to pass them. Suggest away but if council and parliament don't agree it goes nowhere.

Govt & big business not unknown in uk, prob worse. Witness murdochs comments on uk govt do what I say, Brussels ignore me. Not to mention your powerful food business sector. And finance sector. Plenty of lobbying done in London. Smaller govt more likely to listen imo. In fact, I had the distinct impression one of the reasons for leaving is to get rid of some of those pesky regulations "burdening" big business.

So. Not sure what I'm misunderstanding tbh.

It's one of those cliches that's not really true. But everyone loves to hate the bureaucrats.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Now most Virgin initiatives exist and cannot be overturned as ECJ are there to enforce them. Mostly it is lobbyists keeping things ticking along with laws that generally suit big businesses. It is a wasteful nightmare.

The commission will be busier than they have been for a while -as they are to speed up economic policies due to the huge financial mess coming re Italy etc

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Silting: common misconception - you misunderstand : legislative initiative .

Propose and draft are not same as initiate, which commission has monopoly on and decide if they will initiate. The commission run the show.

Of course president of commission is also involved in Council shaping of the commission initiative.

I've posted on other threads the difference and also posted links.

I did link today Jacques Delors institute EU funded research document today which looked into "have they succeeded in reducing the Commissions monopoly on initiative" Answer is no - because the council has commission president involved in drafting mot to mention the other reasons I have explained in other threads.

So they themselves openly admit they haven't moved very far from the commission monopoly. The council do get more opportunities because most Virgin initiatives have been enacted. See mess in Europe. The five presidents report tells you commission initiatives to take place this year and over next ten years. Council will get to shape at next stage on these further integrations - but with commission president involved - but not voting.

[wiltingfast]

Elected !

[wiltingfast]

As for the commissioners, guess who appoints your commissioner? That's right yourselves government.

[wiltingfast]

Ffs the EU is run by the council which is full of.....heads of member states! Imagine! That's an elected politician btw.

The commission can propose laws but it cannot pass them.

That role belongs to the parliament and the council. Who is in the parliament? Oh that's right, the directly elected MEPs....

So wtf are people actually talking about?

[OrangesandLemonsNow]

snowballs stating that older people don't care about the future is not 'fact'!

Stating that the older generation are more likely to vote leave is a fact

Stating that the younger generation are more likely to vote remain is a fact.

As is older generation are more likely to vote younger generation aren't.

Also if you don't vote you can't complain about the outcome.

[SnowBells]

A currency that's being held together by a few reassuring words from Germany.

Last time I checked my bank balance, it was still in Pound Sterling. Not Euro. So of no relevance to the UK.

If you cant un-elect those that legislate for you and govern your lives - you live in a dictatorship.

Do you actually really think that those EU bureaucrats can just do whatever it wants to do without the backing of elected politicians?!?

I'm not all for the EU. It has many faults. But that doesn't mean the UK is completely helpless against it.

[LeaveTheRoundAbout]

Suffering in Greece;
Our lowest paid competing with constant supply of new labour arriving from other EU countries.
Highly educated Eastern European graduates peeling spuds.

The poorer EU countries would do better without the constant easy draw of earning three times their local salary, peeling spuds in UK and improving their own communities. Might be nice for a holiday job - but is this really what we think a great society looks like?

We have our lowest paid completely disenfranchised - turning to UKIP because Labour has branded them racists.

This is the EU now; the future EU - will be more challenging as new countries are required to achieve Commissions' rules.

All these people are affected due to worry over the profits of huge multinationals aka Remain vote.

These companies will still trade and they won't be moving en masse - they are here because of social history; langauge; legal sytem; innovative ideas etc.

It will break up as the economies are too disparate - Mervyn King said the best thing for the EU Zone would be for Germany to exit - other countries will never achieve what is being asked of them fiscally and the suffering will continue.

It will either be social unrest or it will be the no more money can be printed as it has become valueless - not as mad as that may have once sounded - look at interest rates currently.

We are attached to a failing social experiment causing misery to lots in Southern Europe.

The Labour Party have nothing to say, except they wouldn't mind a nice £100,000 plus job serving at an EU instituion one day - oh and it's good for you numpties on zero hour contracts - you get holiday pay after three months for goodness sake.

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

What a ignorant, arrogant and bigoted post.

There's no case for 'Out' really - hence, the constant focus on immigration.

As an immigrant myself some 40 years ago, first and foremost, my (and many other people's) concern is the overt the incompetence and unaccountability of those faceless bureaucrats that are running the EU. The north / south divide of the continent. Economic stagnation. A currency that's being held together by a few reassuring words from Germany.. And the fact that: if you cant un-elect those that legislate for you and govern your lives - you live in a dictatorship. No matter how smart they dress it up.

Most of those I met who are for 'Out' are older. They don't care about the future.

How about the type of British nation that future generations will inherit? You know for a fact that none of those people voting 'out' might be motivated by concern over that? The fact that they'll be governed by rulers who don't have to seek a mandate from them? That's irrelevant is it?

So what of Immigration anyway? That dreadful taboo that dare not speak its name without some infantile buffoon bellowing accusations of 'racism'' the moment it's mentioned? So the UK taxpayer has no right to an honest discourse about pressing issues, such as - immigration policy, health care, and the global concerns orbiting around Islamist terrorism, during this debate?

[SnowBells]

OrangesandLemonsNow

It's not ageism. It's fact. Unfortunately. This picture was published in the Wall Street Journal.

[SnowBells]

WaspsandBeesSting

I wouldn't want my children to have less chances than I have. Who's going to fund places like Cornwall, Wales and N.I.? Do you really think the UK government would spend the GBP20 billion they'd be 'saving' on the UK?!? They won't.

[OrangesandLemonsNow]

Wow ageist stereotyping now.

I thought those for remain were all supposed to be lovely?

[SnowBells]

And all those people who want to vote on every. single. thing. politicians do... what do you think you vote politicians into parliament for?!?

You vote people in because you think they can do a good job. They will not always do what you want them to do, but how can they, when millions of people have voted them in? They can't please EVERYONE.

Would these very same people like to be micro-managed by their managers?!?

[WaspsandBeesSting]

Most of those I met who are for 'Out' are older.

Most I know are under 45. I even know some, shock horror, 18 year old.

My 82 year old next door meighbour is voting remain.

They don't care about the future.

Maybe think before you post. It will stop you posting silly nonsense that way.

[SnowBells]

Also... the one thing that is brought up here again and again...

The NHS is massively overrated. The UK is not the only country that makes healthcare access mandatory to all citizens. Otherwise... how do you think those British retirees can access healthcare in Spain?!?

[SnowBells]

In.

There's no case for 'Out' really - hence, the constant focus on immigration.

Most of those I met who are for 'Out' are older. They don't care about the future.

[Ailicece]

In!!!

[AugustaFinkNottle]

I'm serious about the existence of the extremely badly parked car and the Leave poster - and indeed about the temptation I felt. Obviously I didn't act on it.

Fortunately for me another car moved so that I could get out. Had I been trapped for longer I might have given in to temptation.

[OrangesandLemonsNow]

I was parked in by an idiot in the supermarket car park just now - they were parked almost diagonally across the space. There was a big "Leave" sign in the window. I was so tempted to leave a note saying "You park just like I would expect a Brexiter to park".

Please tell me aren't serious.

[AugustaFinkNottle]

I was parked in by an idiot in the supermarket car park just now - they were parked almost diagonally across the space. There was a big "Leave" sign in the window. I was so tempted to leave a note saying "You park just like I would expect a Brexiter to park".

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

Out. Out and Out some more.....

[Step]

In - all the way

[NancyDecca]

In
We get a huge amount of inward investment as a country by being part of the EU - i.e. companies choosing to set up here , and the employment that brings.