EU referendum - in or out?

[juneau]

I used to be completely pro-Europe, but I'm now leaning firmly towards 'out' and the national mood seems to have switched that way too. So how would you vote?

[Katz]

In

As a country we get billions in EU funding to do research. Money which this government would never invest. If we don't research and explore new technologies then we will have nothing to do business with,

Many areas in the UK have greatly benefitted from European development funds again this runs to millions over time, money which the current government would not spend.

I can't see our current government reinvesting the £20billion we currently pay. So as a nation we would lose.

What we need at Our elected European members of parliament to actually turn up and do the job they have been elected to do, which is represent the UKs interests in Europe.

[HugoBear]

Squidzin:

Saving the membership fee is meaningless when you then lose the industries that set up in the UK to be in the Single Market.

We spent £bns in taxpayers money attracting Toyota, Honda etc to the UK and promised them access to the Single Market. Take that market access away and the main reason for them staying goes out the window.

Ask any Kipper why the multinationals would stay, and they can't give a coherent answer.

Like I said - no credible economic case for Brexit. Even the serious sceptic commentators forecasts project circa 2% fall in GDP (at least they are honest enough to say they'd rather Britain be poorer).

Oh, and the EU aren't a threat to the NHS. That threat is much closer to to home.

[claig]

HugoBear are you sure?

The Commission propose the laws and the Council accept or reject it. But the Council is made up of ministers from different countries who are under no pressure from European publics as we don't even discuss what they are up to on Newsnight or interview any of them on there and we don't even know what they are doing, and of course they have to do backroom deals with each other to get anything through with quid pro quos and all the rest of it.

In the end, we as the public have no real scrutiny or discussion over what is going on or what they are up to.

[claig]

'Ask any Kipper why the multinationals would stay, and they can't give a coherent answer.'

Because if they tried to stop them haveing access to the EU market, then we would slap tariffs on them and since we are the EU's largest trading cutsomer with a deficit in trade with them, then they wouldn't do that. We would negotiate a trade deal with them.

[HugoBear]

The fact we in the UK rarely discuss proposed EU law is our fault - no-one else's. It's in plain sight, and MEPs discuss and amend proposals before the Council have a final say.

If we choose to, we can have more oversight & visibility of eu lawmaking process than we currently have in the uk.

--

Also, international trade is a bit more complex than saying "they need us more than we need them".

[claig]

There was a 30 minute interview with Romano Prodi, former head of the European Commission, on Russia Today today. Watch it or read the transcript and read between the lines to understand what we are dealing with, with an elite ruling our lives without asking us what we think about it.

Prodi agrees with Joschka Fischer that Germany is shaping Europe as its sphere of influence and that France, Italy, Spain should have opposed Germany over a growth policy and that the US has driven the sanctions over Russia which have affected European farmers and which Prodi thinks are wrong and that these sanctions were driven through the EU by Germany which made the decision.

Prodi tells us we need immigration from Syria because of falling birthrates without asking us if there are any alternatives or what we want.

The whole thing is an elitist joke where decisons are taken above our heads in an undemocratic way.

www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/317645-refugee-risis-europe-tensions/

[claig]

'The fact we in the UK rarely discuss proposed EU law is our fault - no-one else's.'

No that is the way our political class and the elite who run the EU like it. They want us kept in the dark so that they can stitch things up without any opposition from the people. It is not democratic and our news programmes don't even discuss what they are up to.

[claig]

RP: "This is why I, even in economic policy, I repeated so many times that we should have done an alternative growth policy with France, Italy, Spain. Not against Germany - but because of their own interests. So, politics is balancing interests, you know!

SS: But what worries you the most about the Union dominated by Germany?

RP: No, I am not worried.

SS: You’re not worried?

RP: I’m overly worried, but not because of Germany, because in any case, when you have a dominant guy, he will settle the rules under his own interests. United country, the strongest country, united inside…

SS: Economically very strong.

RP: And politically very strong. So, I am absolutely pro-German, but I am for balanced power - because, this is life! In economy, politics…

SS: But how does that balance finds itself in a real world, where, like you’ve said, this is the strongest country in Europe, economically and politically?

RP: Look, Spain, Italy, France have the same interest, they should act together.

.....

RP is Prodi.He is a politician, a bureaucrat, a fixer, a deal maker who makes deals avoe our heads and without informing us and allows Germany to decide what goes on because he and his other ministers and servants don't have enough power to stop Germany because it is "the strongest country".

Half of these people are ex-bankers, many worked for Goldman Sachs. The whole thing is a joke where the elite are laughing at all of the European public as they stitch up deals between themselves that affect all our lives and our BBC don't even interview themor scrutinise them.

[claig]

Here is Prodi

"A former professor of economics and international advisor to Goldman Sachs"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romano_Prodi

Unaccountable to the people making decisions that affect all our lives.

[claig]

RP: Look, Europe is not working because of the divisions. This is another chapter, you know. You’re asking me about the German dominance and there’s a German dominance, but there’s no Union: and in many fields you need unanimity. So, simply, not having unanimity, you have a paralysis. This is a strong point: we must arrive to a supranational Europe, a Federal Europe, otherwise we are lost. We need step by step...and the euro, remember that the euro was the great first step to the Federal Europe. Then, this tragedy, combined tragedy of populistic parties, immigrants and economic crisis

...

They are determined to continue with their experiment of closer union because they are servants of the elite. They don't care about our sovereignty or about popular dissent. They want unanimity even though that is impossible. But without our public knowing what their game is and what they are playing at because our BBC don't interview them or ask them anything but soft ball questions, they can get away with it.

[HugoBear]

"...interview on Russia Today..."

Putin-funded misinformation and conspiracy theory conduit deliberately set up to destabilise the West.

"Watch it or read the transcript and read between the lines to understand what we are dealing with, with an elite ruling our lives without asking us what we think about it."

i.e. make stuff up to suit your preconceptions.

[claig]

It's Romano Prodi, former Head of the Euopean Commission, in his own words for 30 minutes. I think he knows more about the EU and how it works than you do and I don't think he wants to deliberately destabilise the West.

Listen to him (use your interpretative skills) and see what we are dealing with.

[pointythings]

In, especially after what Jeremy Hunt said about British workers needing to work like the Americans and the Chinese. If it's out, workers' rights to sick pay and holiday pay will just vanish.

[TheNewStatesman]

I can't decide.

But the thing is, we are already sort of "out" of Europenot in Schengen, not in the Euro zone, on the peripheries of most decisionsand if we did go "out" officially, then we would end up having to sign all sorts of treaties and agreements which would amount to very much like the situation we have at the moment.

So I don't know if it really matters all THAT much in the great scheme of things.

[HugoBear]

Claig:

I know who Romano Prodi is.

And quoting a former Commission President' opinions as "proof" of something current is like quoting former Prime Minister Tony Blair on something David Cameron's government is executing.

[claig]

Prodi is mates with the whole gang. He was part of it and knows them all. He knows how it all works and what its aims are.

'is like quoting former Prime Minister Tony Blair on something David Cameron's government is executing.'

Blair and Cameron are both modernisers. Cameron is called "the heir to Blair". They are not that different. There is a continuity and shared aims over wanting to remain in the EU.

[DontHaveAUsername]

Definitely out I don't want to be governed by a foreign government I want to be governed by this government. I don't like the Tories but at least I can try and vote them out, I've not yet had the opportunity to vote the EU out.

[juneau]

I've not yet had the opportunity to vote the EU out

I think this is a good point - we as a people have not had a vote on whether we wish to remain part of the EU since we joined it in 1973. If we live in a democratic country and get to choose who governs us then IMO its important that we get to have referendums from time to time to check that people still feel the same way. And if we remain to stay in - so be it - at least we've had a chance to vote on that.

I felt the same about the Scottish referendum - let the people choose.

[WidowWadman]

You can vote for your MEP every 5 years.

[DontHaveAUsername]

Widow yes, but we haven't been allowed to vote on whether we even want such a thing as an MEP to exist. Why not just have MP's in our government governing this country, and other countries can do the same in their land, and we can all still be friendly towards each other.

[WidowWadman]

Well, you've never been allowed to vote on if you want MPs to exist either. So that's really no argument.

[DontHaveAUsername]

Not the same thing. Minus any anarchists among us, we all agree that there has to be some form of government. We already have one, so why do we need another, why can't the British government govern Britain, the French government govern France?

[Chipstick10]

Out

[evilcherub]

Out.

[ottothedog]

In

I need to be able to emigrate when it all goes neo fascist tits up here
(Sadly of course, the out vote will be the start of this)