EU referendum - in or out?

[juneau]

I used to be completely pro-Europe, but I'm now leaning firmly towards 'out' and the national mood seems to have switched that way too. So how would you vote?

[Sunshineonacloudyday]

We are the 5th biggest nation because of imigrants they have been coming since the second world war. They work in Hospitals, farms, banks. Its already been told as fact there are more people coming in from outside the EU to study than in the EU.

[Spinflight]

Cheers Claig,

You are correct, I knew nowt about it! :)

[Marmite59]

Gosh it would seem Allison Pearson has cloned herself and taken out multiple MN identities. When did MN turn into the Telegraph chat forum? Did I miss the memo?

I'd ask the outers this: what if you're wrong? What if we become immersed in economic chaos and people - real people - lose their jobs, their homes? What if that nice polish doctor at your local hospital suddenly isn't there anymore and your dad's heart operation get cancelled? What if the bureaucracy that results from Brexit trumps the bureaucracy you thought you were getting rid of. What if those much derided experts who that nice Mr Gove dismisses are right and he's wrong? What if the populist paradise you thought you were getting turns out to be a nightmare and ushers in a far right or a far left govt? What if the French decide sod this for a game of soldiers, you can have your border back and it won't be starting at Calais anymore? What if the immigrants come anyway and west London and Dover become extended refugee detainment centres?

Hv any of you thought this through? Where's the risk analysis? The planning? The fucking detail?? As Caesar said to Brutus 'the fault is not in our stars it is in ourselves'. Be careful what you wish for because once we're gone we're gone.

[claig]

Marmite59, it sounds like the Establishment's Project Fear has got to ya bad. They've done their work, they've earned their publicly funded pay.

'What if we become immersed in economic chaos and people - real people - lose their jobs'

We will be free to trade with the entire world and to make new trade deals and the EU will not want to restrict our trade with them as we are their biggest market.

'What if that nice polish doctor at your local hospital suddenly isn't there anymore and your dad's heart operation get cancelled?'

With £8.5 billion taken back, we will invest it in the NHS and operations will be carried out more qucikly, we will train more of our own nurses and doctors and we will keep all the Polish doctors needed to carry out better service and more operations with our extra £8.5 billion per year to spend.

'What if the bureaucracy that results from Brexit trumps the bureaucracy you thought you were getting rid of'

British bureacucracy is not as bad as the EU variety and we will have control of our own political class who will be able to cut our own bureaucracy if we want that.

'What if those much derided experts who that nice Mr Gove dismisses are right and he's wrong?'

Gove is at the heart of government, he knows what goes on, no one can pull the wool over his eyes. He has seen all their predictions before and has seen them get it wrong. He knows how the game works and whose side their bread is buttered on.

'What if the populist paradise you thought you were getting turns out to be a nightmare and ushers in a far right or a far left govt?'

There is no chance of a far right in the UK and Corbyn and his sidekick, Old MacDonald, have sold out and are not far left.

'What if the French decide sod this for a game of soldiers, you can have your border back and it won't be starting at Calais anymore?'

Then we will do entry checks on trains and ferries and send people back if they are not allowed to enter.

'What if the immigrants come anyway and west London and Dover become extended refugee detainment centres?'

They only come if they think they are allowed to stay.

[Millyonthefloss]

the fault is not in our stars it is in ourselves

That wasn't really Caesar you know, it was Shakespeare.

Who also said:

"Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win, by fearing to attempt".

[oliviaclottedcream]

Equally horrifying, nightmare scenarios can be dreamed up by the Brexit side Marmite. They said the same thing after the 2nd world war, at the end of empire, the depression, the various recessions etc. This country has come through and emerged a prosperous, liberal, tolerant, pluralist nation/society. We should be an independent country, living within laws that we have consented to. Who makes the 'one size fits all' laws at present and how accountable are they?

For me it comes down to the incompetence and unaccountability of the EU. They couldn't have made a worse job of it had they set out to destroy the continent.

[LaBelleOtero]

I'm In and DP is Out. We probably won't bother voting as we'll just cancel each other out.

Well that's what he told our neighbour. I'm thinking of sneakily voting anyway. He probably is too

[Marmite59]

Oh I know Olivia. I've watched Brexit the movie (what a balanced and objective piece of work it is too) and it's clear to all that we'll be ruled by Kim Jung Junker with our rights stripped bare and all made to speak Latvian. I know this to be true because Melanie Phillips and kelvin Mckenzie told me and I trust them more than my first borne.

Here's one then: that populist nutcase govt that Claig never tells me will happen wrecks the economy. Who will bail us out? The EU? The IMF? Churchill? King Arthur?

[Spinflight]

Hmmm... Scaremongering about the scaremongering?

A fair question though I think.

The answer I would give, if the fears you listed came to fruition, is that we would accept responsibility and fix the issues. Might take time but we would have a better country for our efforts.

For balance one should posit the opposite for it does rather put the debate into context.

Should the eurozone collapse, right wing racists take power in France and elsewhere, the EU decide to form and use a European Army against Russia etc..

Then we could not take responsibility or fix the issues for there is no accountability enshrined in the EU organisation. We would be leaves in a storm, unable to alter policy or sack those responsible.

[Millyonthefloss]

Olivia For me it comes down to the incompetence and unaccountability of the EU. They couldn't have made a worse job of it had they set out to destroy the continent.

Agree. Unemployment in Spain for the under 25s is 45 per cent. And that's with half of them up here. Miserable.

[claig]

'Who will bail us out? The EU? The IMF? '

If we ever went bankrupt, then the IMF would bail us out, we would be the bankers' property just like we were under the Labour government in the 1970s when we had to accept their terms.

But that won't happen because it is unlikely that we will get a socialist government in the short term and our industry will become more competitive as regulations and bureaucracy are lifted and we are able to cut energy prices of our steelworks etc which have made our companies uncompetitive with higher energy prices than elsewhere in Europe thanks to the stupidity, incompetence and ideology of Milibamd and the gang.

[Aeroflotgirl]

Out definitely, 35 million pounds a day goes to the EU from the UK, that alone has influenced my decision, money that can go back into public services. The EU is not a democracy, we do not vote for who is in the high echelons of power there. I wanted out years ago.

[oliviaclottedcream]

Marmite. Your post reminds me of one of some YouTube, amateur "comedy" rants. Highly likely to make those intending to vote for Brexit reconsider and hang their heads in shame.

[Millyonthefloss]

Apologies for the length of this. It is from Chris Baird. I think it is reassuring for anyone wary or confused about Brexit .... please see my note at the end before jumping in and trashing it!

"Seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future."

The link to Chris's page is below. There is an update with even more detail if you scroll down. Please look at it before jumping in with niggles about the detail relating to EEA etc.

www.facebook.com/chris.baird.1654

[mollie123]

milly
spot on - hopefully that will make people take a deep breath before voting 'in'
unfortunately so many people are taken in by the scaremongering!

[oliviaclottedcream]

Facts and logic are all very well Milly But any gov't we, the UK electorate vote for, en-masse, will be 'populist' over popular - can't you see that? As we are, according to some people, a nation prone to voting for extremists and 'populist' political parties... Apparently we have a habit of buying into flashy political packages and go all 'star struck' with catchphrases, pomp, loud music and celebrity endorsements at election times. Especially if they make us dream of King Arthur and are endorsed by the Sun and the Daily Mail.

All Brexiters are all xenophobic, petty minded isolationists didn't you know? Pah!!!

[lavenderdoilly]

Three words. House of Lords. Are brexiteers going to reform that unelected body that has an undemocratic say over UK democracy?

[Millyonthefloss]

Mollie and Olivia. I should have acknowledged that it was Jelliedeels who first posted Chris Baird's excellent facebook post on another thread. It is such a sensible summary. If I used facebook I would share it.

[oliviaclottedcream]

Another three words. 'That's another discussion'.

That said - ultimately, the Commons generally gets its way in the end, on the big issues anyway, like the bedroom tax which the Lords rejected. As a revising process the Lords' role in our democracy is important, and the Lords often successfully amend sloppy bills in relatively obscure ways which prevents them disgracing the statute book.

Hopefully The Lords Reform Issue will be addressed and reformed by Brexiters and non-Brexiters alike.

[niceguy2]

Out definitely, 35 million pounds a day goes to the EU from the UK, that alone has influenced my decision, money that can go back into public services. The EU is not a democracy, we do not vote for who is in the high echelons of power there. I wanted out years ago. - Aeroflot

The £35m figure that is often cited doesn't include the money we get back from the EU in terms of grants to uni's, scientific research & subsidies to farmers etc. If you take that into account the figure is more like £18m. The reason why it's important is who will replace the lost income the farmers, scientists etc if we plough the £35m into say....the NHS?

We have MEP's which are indeed elected and in turn they elect the "high echelons" as you put it. That's really no different to the way we elect our local MP who in turn votes for the leader of the party who is ultimately PM. We also don't elect our civil service.

So to say it's not democratic is simply untrue. What people often mean is that a) We don't understand it and b) We don't get our way often enough.

The latter is unfortunately par for the course in a democracy. I didn't vote Tory but I still have a Tory government who introduced the bedroom tax and tripled student fees!

[Winterbiscuit]

[[http://forbritain.org/propagandapaper.pdf How much does the EU spend
on promoting itself?]]

"In 2014, the EU committed €664 million (£536m) directly to promotional and communication spending through budgets where the primary purpose was promoting the EU and “the political priorities of the Union”. More widely, the EU committed up to €3.9 billion (£3.1bn) to budgets that contained provisions for "projects enhancing awareness of Union policies" and "corporate communication of the political priorities of the Union"."

Surely if the EU was truly accountable to ordinary people, it would follow our priorities, and there would be no need to tell us what its "political priorities" are, or to spend millions on promoting them to us!

[Winterbiscuit]

The £35m figure that is often cited doesn't include the money we get back from the EU in terms of grants to uni's, scientific research & subsidies to farmers etc. If you take that into account the figure is more like £18m. The reason why it's important is who will replace the lost income the farmers, scientists etc if we plough the £35m into say....the NHS?

The EU sends some of our money back, to be spent on what it decides our taxpayers money should be spent on in our own country

Of course farming and science are important. But a good deal of money sent back from the EU goes to things which are arguably less vital to our country than the NHS, and another good chunk doesn't come back at all.

[cressetmama]

My mind decided out when I read the words, attributed to a senior Euro-bureaucrat functionary, "voting should be restricted to graduates".

I have a degree but the sheer arrogance horrified me! And it's the arrogance that makes me think we ought to draw the line on further integration. Compassion and respect for rights are not the sole prerogative of the left; nor common sense and economic prudence the exclusive preserve of the right.

[Millyonthefloss]

Talking of the £35m figure (which is actually £350m - bit of a difference - but just goes to show that when you start bandying big numbers about it all becomes a bit meaningless.)

I don't really care how many millions it is per week exactly, I still don't want it wasted within the EU.

Personally when I pay income tax, corporation tax, NI, VAT etc etc etc, I would be MUCH happier if I knew it was all being spent by the British Govt. I have had my gripes with British Govts over the years, but I have basically trusted them all not to waste my hard earned money.

It gives me the rage to think of it being spent on all the bonkers things the EU does - eg moving the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg all the time which costs £100 m according to this article.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

If I knew it was all going to being spent on our NHS, schools, benefits, army etc I would just be so much happier. Our institutions are super-efficient by comparison.

I can't stand waste and extravagance.

[38cody]

Out