EU referendum - in or out?

[juneau]

I used to be completely pro-Europe, but I'm now leaning firmly towards 'out' and the national mood seems to have switched that way too. So how would you vote?

In.

I was leaning out but I am now so concerned that an out vote will result in an increase in support for the extreme right wing. I do not want to live in that sort of society.

Thank you Topcraftfor taking the time to explain that so well, it certainly helped me.

NotSparticus that is one of my concerns too.

In %200

Thank you Witches, glad to hear it was of some help. This campaign has been so sad to watch - the basic and universal values J stood for don't seem to be "in fashion" any more.

And that's not a purely partisan point by the way. Given that I work in Brussels, there's little news in where my sympathies lie. But UKIP's latest 'breaking point' campaign was a new low. Giving asylum to refugees is an obligation for civilised countries - morally certainly but also legally. And is quite distinct from EU membership. But details like that don't seem to matter to them.

Nor does the little detail that nothing, but nothing, in the EU system stands in the way of the U.K. introducing the much-vaunted 'points system' for third country national immigrants (who constitute the majority of immigrants to the UK). Why hasn't it happened? No-one to blame from outside the UK for that (if you think it is a good idea).

Is the EU perfect? Certainly not. But nor is the UK's democracy without the odd blemish. Speaking of which - the UK and Denmark are the only countries within the EU deny to deny votes to passport holders who are resident elsewhere. We could start there with improvements, IMHO.

So I, for one, remain a believer that working to achieve common goals within clearly defined parameters within the EU - leaving some 98% of public spending to be determined nationally - is still the way forward. The alternative looks bleak to me, in terms of values at least.

Apologies for the long post! More of a rant, even.

The death of Jo Cox is devastating, I have the deepest admiration for her work and my heart goes out to her family and friends. But it doesn't change the way that I intend to vote which is out.

Out

Sweden will follow soon, as will Ireland. The eu is on the brink of collapse.

When the UK leaves the Dutch and Danes will follow

In. Because the referendum question doesn't set out an alternative, so the "alternative" will be the one chosen by whoever is in power following Brexit, most likely Boris Johnson, Gove, etc. And I don't agree with their values. Plus the uncertainty while they negotiate, leading to people losing their jobs, savings, and perhaps their homes. This will hit the poorest the hardest.

For those who haven't make up their mind, I found the following useful in separating the facts from the lies on both sides:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07jczmc
www.economist.com/sites/default/files/EconomistBrexitBriefs16.pdf

Ireland? What gives you that idea ????? Seriously, it is not remotely on the agenda here. All the talk is how do we minimise the damage of an "out" to us and maintain relations with uk.

People here can hardly credit it might happen.

Plus, will all the black market trade north and south resume??? yes

Out since the phrase Democratic deficit for the EU translates to it being undemocratic. For me the power of the lobbyist who suggested the reading rooms are also undemocratic.
The Euro army is also very real and I can't see the UK getting in the way of the well made plans for its imminent announcement.
Many of the countries who will embrace it will have national service already. :(

I was leaning out but I am now so concerned that an out vote will result in an increase in support for the extreme right wing. I do not want to live in that sort of society.

I'm not sure a remain or leave vote will do that.

Half the country if polls tonight are to belive are going to be upset by the result.

If it is remain then the government needs to listen to the concerns of those that voted Leave and vice versa if the result is Remain.

If they don't I can see the nastiness getting worse not better.

Oh and by listen I mean actually listen and not play lip service.

Vote Leave tell us that we could save £350 million a week if we left the EU. They tell us we could spend the money on the NHS and reduce VAT on fuel.

But do they tell us that £350 million a week represents a tiny percentage (less than 1%) of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP), and that a small fall in the value of the £ would wipe out those savings overnight?

Do they tell us that that £350 million enables 75% of our businesses to export to the EU, and supports 3 million jobs? Do they tell us that nearly half our exports go to the EU, and would be subject to tariffs if we left the Single Market?

Do they tell us that we get 50 times that £350 million in investment? EU countries invest nearly £500 billion in the UK, half our foreign investment?

No wonder the vast majority of businesses don’t want us to leave the world’s biggest trading bloc. No wonder Bill Gates, who has invested a billion dollars in the UK, is only the latest businessman to say that leaving the EU would make the UK much less attractive to invest in.

Vote Leave talk about doing trade deals all over the world. But they don’t tell us that the worldwide trading deals the EU has already established on our behalf won’t be open to us if we leave.

Vote Leave won’t even tell us whether they will apply to stay in the Single Market. If we do, we’ll have to accept, as Norway does, that we’ll have to pay almost as much as we pay now, and have no say on EU policies. But if we don’t, jobs and investment are all put seriously at risk, and no, there won’t be any extra money for the NHS.

So instead of just listing what vote leave say what about vote remain? Great aunt

I think what has finally tipped the balance for me into voting Remain is Farage's advert. The sheer level of deceit and intolerance involved really brought it home to me that I simply cannot trust the Leave camp's case.

Judy, I respect your decision. However, Farage really doesn't represent half the population of this country. The vast majority of us who are pro-Leave are not UKIP supporters but ordinary people with moderate views. Farage is not an MP and he isn't part of the official Leave campaign.

Vote Leave won’t even tell us whether they will apply to stay in the Single Market.

Vote Leave aren't the government and cannot apply to be in the Single Market or make trade deals. Both sides can only discuss possibilities.

The Euro spends millions transferring the eu from Brussels to Strasbourg to work from there for four days a month.

The 21 Euro commissioners get over £200k salary, plus £8k allowances each month for them plus more for families.

Our kids are not going to have any chance of getting jobs in the future if we stay .... There will be more sports direct style operations who don't employ Brits, just foreign workers who will accept low pay.

Other countries want to leave to and are planning similar referendums. Let's make it a leave day,

out

I think we need to try hard to not confuse three separate issues.
One, the tragic death of a much loved person.
Two, imigration from outside Europe.
Three, the issues about the EU as an institution.

The first two do not affect my vote.
I will be voting on account of the third and that alone. ..

PS fwiw it is out. There is no single reason, rather death by a thousand cuts.

So what are your hopes for an independent England Professor ? What will be better?

Winterbiscuit I agree. Farage is a dreadful man but I am voting leave primarily for democracy. The EU is simply undemocratic. We did not vote for the commission the president of which told Putin last week he was our leader.
Our supreme leader also wants a euro army which is incredibly likely. See this www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-plans-eu-army-kept-secret-until-after-brexit-vote-1562327
So the lack of transparency and slew of announcements they will hit us with just after the election are simply sly.