Rebecca Minnock Case Thread 2

[sonnyson12]

Further judgement released:

www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ethan-williams-private.pdf

Previous judgements:

www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/roger-williams-v-rebecca-minnock-and-ethan-freeman-williams-2-judgments/

O dear. Never has the phrase stable door and bolting horse been more appropriate.

They have already unleashed such a tsunami of crap which no doubt has been assiduously screen shotted by various lawyers, it will make no difference what they do now.

Spero,

Do you think it will be a quiet week now until the next hearing, in terms of judgements being released?

The more that is "revealed" by Rebecca's supporters, the more public opinion is being polarised, I think.

One of the latest revelations I have read on a campaign page is the RM "recorded" Ethan making allegations of sexual abuse against his Dad. He's three. I can't begin to imagine how that happened to "come out" in conversation. I assume this is linked to the "questioning" that it has been confirmed RM subjected him to on returning from his Dad's. Poor little lad. I hope he forgets.

I can't think what other judgments can be released now! But this case has so many twists and turns who knows...

It is quite common - in my experience at least - for allegations by one parent against another to follow a narrative arc that culminates in allegations of sexual abuse.

I suspect this is almost always due to the fact that after a few years of this, trust and respect for the other parents has absolutely vanished, to be replaced by fear and loathing. You then get a child who is just verbal who says 'daddy touched my bottom' - meaning 'daddy helped me go to the toilet and wiped my bum for me' (or similar).

This is heard by the other parent who immediately seizes on it as evidence of their worst fears, confirmation that the other parent is truly evil, often police and SW are brought in, child is spoken to by other professionals and on the circus goes.

After a few months of this, innocent remarks can have solidified into 'disclosures' of abuse.

i have had cases where children, years later, repeat horrific stories of abuse that just cannot be true - stabbed up the bottom by scissors, but never any injuries of any kind etc - but they believe that they are true. This is just as much abuse as if they had been sexually abused in reality; arguably its even worse because dealing with unpicking a falsehood in your later life that was imposed on you by a parent who is supposed to love and protect you, has the potential to be even more traumatic than confronting a terrible reality - and will certainly be more confusing.

dealing with unpicking a falsehood in your later life that was imposed on you by a parent who is supposed to love and protect you, has the potential to be even more traumatic than confronting a terrible reality - and will certainly be more confusing.

There is a narrative in Christine Ann Lawsons book "Understanding the Borderline Mother" that captures the terror felt by a child when they make the realisation that their Mothers actions are at odds with their words of love. It is incredibly powerful - and Lawson goes on to reference the psychological research that suggests that children in this position often deny what they see - they continue to believe what their mother tells them, rather than acknowledge what they experience themselves - because it is too terrifying to believe that their primary carer does not have their best interests at heart.

I notice that RM's brother has called Judge Wildblood a 'child molester enabler' on Facebook.

Peruvian - that sounds really interesting. I think I would find it harder to deal with someone who claimed to be hurting me because they 'loved' me so much. that perversion and distortion of what 'love' means must be particularly damaging.

I guess that is also how a lot of sexual abusers justify themselves - it is an expression of their 'love'.

When the reality is - for both abusive mothers AND fathers - the child has become just an object for them to use in a way to try and satisfy their own needs, be they emotional or sexual.

I notice that RM's brother has called Judge Wildblood a 'child molester enabler' on Facebook.

One of the responses to that particularly distasteful meme goes further, and accuses the judge and other men involved of "covering up" the abuse of Ethan because they themselves are sexual abusers.
According to the comments made on the various supporter sites, the court has "gagged" RM, thus preventing her from sharing the specifics of the allegations she presented to the court.

While it's clear that the sentiment behind RM actions is shared by a large proportion of society, it is the degree to which she has, and continues, to act on them that is most surprising to me. Generally, the reality of family court, particularly when the Judge has made it clear what the court expects, is enough to subdue even the most belligerent, isn't it? The fact that RM was posting on FB about the case after the last hearing seems most incredible. Either the legal advice she is receiving is very poor, or she thinks she knows better, and is therefore ignoring it.

Wow Peruvian, that's even worse, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these people find themselves in legal trouble very soon.

And yes, I agree, most of the people I've spoken to about the case have said they understand her actions but don't agree with how far she and her family have taken it, and continue to take it.

I suspect RM thinks that she's in the clear if she herself doesn't break the court order, having artistically forgotten the phrase that will certainly be in there which also forbids those speaking on her behalf from publicising details.

I saw some poster on the FB page getting incredibly indignant about the fact that the father had been permitted to publish a short statement whilst RM was "gagged". It is quite extraordinary that it does not occur to them that maybe the judge allowed it in order to redress the balance slightly given the fact that RM and her supporters have said 5000 times as much publicly, especially in that stupid video.

I wonder whether that alleged recording of Ethan disclosing abuse had something to do with the findings against RM? Clearly he can't have genuinely disclosed it, otherwise he wouldn't be with his father now. However, if what was heard on the recording was RM prompting or leading him into saying that his father abused him, the court might well have decided that that was strong evidence of abusive conduct on her part.

It would be quite unusual for a child of that age to make a clear 'disclosure' of anything much. I assume he has only just started to put sentences together.

But it is sadly not unusual for parents to subject their children to repeated questioning until the children say what they want them to, all while recording them to 'make their case'.

Such a shame how kids are used as ammunition when adults cannot separate amicably.
Had RM got her way, that little boy would grow up without a father, and be told all sorts of evil things about his dad as he grew into adolescence.
Imagine a teenager's thought processes as he learns the other side as he grows up?
Believe that your dad abused you (even though you were too young to remember, but your mam, her family, her friends told you so).
Or give the dad a chance - trust his version, but that means acknowledging your mother, the person in whom you place all your trust, all your love, has lied to you about the most abhorrent things.
And people are defending her?

From comments on the other group it looks as though RM is continuing to comment in the closed group. I shouldn't be but I almost feel excited to hear the dressing down she is due..!

What other group, Bellemere?

I find it rather disconcerting that a large amount of the 'supporters' that have the joined the group seem to be young mothers.

That, and the claims that many of the 1,300 members have been 'shafted' by the family courts is, to me, rather worrying and quite telling.

I believe these kind of attitudes are far more prevalent than many would want to accept.

The other group is the one that supports Ethan's dad. It's called Dads deserve equality - equal rights for dads.

Interestingly, I have been told throughout my experience never to mention our rights but to focus on the child's rights yet the judge is this case is clearly acknowledging Rebecca's rights and Roger's rights. Is that normal Spero?

Of course mothers and fathers have rights to a relationship with their child - this is enshrined in Article 8 of the ECHR. Courts in this country MUST take positive steps to protect and support that right.

BUT. Courts also have to operate within confines of the Children Act which states as its very first section that the welfare of the CHILD is the court's 'paramount consideration'.

this means that no parent can argue that their right to see a child trumps that child's right to be kept safe. This is why courts can and do refuse to allow abusive parents to see children.

This paramountcy of the child's rights has been held to be compatible with the ECHR.

Therefore, most cases proceed on the basis that it is the child's right to know his/her parents and there is a presumption that unless the contrary can be shown, both parents have a right to enjoy this relationship too. But generally, 'parents' rights' don't get much focus. There is focus on the 'father's rights' here because these are what the mother is explicitly trying to deny, alongside of course Ethan's right to a relationship with his dad.

Bellemere - Judges are rarely impressed by parents who frame their case in terms of 'it is MY right to...'. It is much better if parents can put the focus on what their child needs.

Which explains the advice you have been given, which I think is sensible. Adults who put the emphasis on their own needs are often lacking in insight about what their child needs or unable to see that there could possibly be any difference - which is what I think has happened in the RM case.

Sadly, knowing a number of people who believe any conspiracy theory going, I am not surprised by the behaviour of RM's supporters. I have long since ceased to be surprised by the stupidity human beings can exhibit.

Interesting that those who seemed to support RM on the previous thread have not resurfaced. Having lurked on the thread for a long time without commenting I was going to post something about the rather dodgy use of statistics by some on that thread but, given the rather different tone of this thread, I think I'll leave that for now.

My hope is that RM and those around her eventually learn from all this so that Ethan can have a positive relationship with both his parents.

I fear we will have the conspiracy theorists leaping out of the woodwork when a decision is made about any possible contempt action in relation to RM.

I don't agree with what's happened.

But I don't really want her to go to prison.
Would it help?
Would it help her? Or Ethan? Or stop someone doing this again?

I can't see it.

prh: I think the judge's remarks about the allegations about the father being positively shown to be fabrications (rather than just being not proved) may have led some to stop posting fairly unconditional support and in particular the assumption that fathers are more likely to be abusive so every father is dispensable.

I don't particularly want her to go to prison, but I think she may have left the court with no choice. They've already imprisoned two people because of her actions, and she has been publicly announcing that she has no respect for the court and in effect that she would do the same again. Her supporters, including her own brother, have been accusing the judge of being a child abuser, and there is no indication whatsoever that she has done anything to stop them. If they don't impose a pretty hefty penalty they will be sending out a signal to anyone else who doesn't like a court order made against them that they can disobey it with impunity. It's the route to chaos.