Rebecca Minnock Case Thread 2

[sonnyson12]

Further judgement released:

www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/ethan-williams-private.pdf

Previous judgements:

www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/roger-williams-v-rebecca-minnock-and-ethan-freeman-williams-2-judgments/

They could have been fed some disinformation to get publicity.

Who? The Facebook group?

I wonder why they don't try to engage with the very clear information that is available to everyone - you keep showing that you in contempt of the court process, you leave the court no option but to throw the metaphorical book at you.

Apparently this "news" has come from a "primary source". I don't believe a word of it. Just nonsense and hysteria.

I've just read some of that Facebook page. That really is scary.

They thought they found the dad's partner posting on a Facebook page.

'What a fucking cunt! Well that just shows you right there what his intentions were, he's clearly not thinking of Ethan he just wants to bring becky down! That fat selfish fucking cunt bastardised twat! Every dog has his day and his will sure arise prick!!'

It then transpired they'd got their wires crossed. And it wasn't her and she wasn't talking about Ethan's dad.

Pitchforks and torches were out though.

They know people are reading...

think we.re sidetrackin guys much as i.m lovin readin it (lol) but this page is spied on and i believe monitored by judge as well as the haters who assume we wudnt defend if was a male well i for one can say errr wrong!! I support anyone who is being unfairly treated and not believed n has been victim of dv and who stands up for what they believe in and genuinelly love their kids not use ppl or kids as weapon

The level of delusion is incredible.
And over 70 people are signed up to protest outside Bristol court on 26th June.

This is actually a horrible dream isn't it?

Spero,

Surely you have encountered this kind of behaviour, from both women and men in your professional capacity, to know that this type of behaviour is not quite so imaginable.

The only difference being that in this case the judgement's are, quite rightly, being made public.

Not a horrible dream to many but a reality?

Spero,

further on, could or would you be able to speculate the precedent that these judgements could possibly set.

Again, I suspect that there are more than few that want this case to just simply disappear.

I have seen a lot of weird behaviour, but this persistent, belligerent refusal to accept reality, even when they have seen what happened to poor Mr Butt is something new and weird.

I can only speculate it is the particular madness of crowds - I note the group membership has climbed from 700 to well over 800 in the course of an evening. They are obviously egging each other on and getting some kind of sick satisfaction from being caught up in the drama.

the judgments won't set any kind of precedent, for the simple reason that they are saying nothing new. They are good, clear, firm judgments, setting out the principles that the courts apply day in, day out. The difference now is that we get to read them hot off the press and we get to discuss them in places like this - and I think that is absolutely the right thing and very valuable.

I think for too long too much emphasis has been put on trying to keep a lid on it all 'for the sake of the children' - of course, children should not be exposed to this kind of crap BUT the downside to the clinging to secrecy is that parents like RM get to run amok and spread all kinds of nonsense which others are only too willing to believe.

I think this may become a watershed moment - not because it changes the law but because we have been able to talk about the law.

And as you have rightly commented, flush out some pretty chilling and revealing assumptions of quite a significant proportion of people.

How could a man do this to the mother of his child.

Oh, the irony. I didn't see them posting impassioned questions asking how a woman could do that to the father of her child.

Spero,

Thank you,

The "persistent and belligerent refusal to accept reality" is unfortunately a consequence of a reality that I have had to tolerate, endure and fight through the said courts.

The father in this case and the Guardian were given the leave to provide an opinion.

I agree that it is a sort of mass hysteria. But they do have some sort of perception that if they shout loud enough then they can make the courts bend to their will, and that somehow the judge will be persuaded by their "campaign" to turn the law on its head and grant a new hearing. I think the press has to bear some responsibility for this sort of attitude: when the Express or the Mail claim that one of their "crusades" has caused, say, a government U-turn although they well know that it had nothing whatsoever to do with it, they feed the fantasies of idiots like this.

What is really worrying is the way they are demonising the father - it sounds all too like a lynch mob.

But where art SGB n' them?

The stuff that's being posted in that group e.g. that Ethan has said he was abused and that his dad is sending Rebecca to jail etc is making me feel ill. Who the hell is responsible for that group and who are they trying to fool?

From what I can gather, the main one is a friend of Rebecca and a few others have mentioned talking to her.

I thought the suggestion that having a celebrity on board might change things absolutely hilarious. I can just imagine the judge now "Oh my, well, if Katie Hopkins thinks I've got it wrong, I must have. I hereby order that Ethan is returned to his mother with immediate effect!" ... Just total nonsense.

It's a really interesting phenomenon isn't it? If we just keep shouting, and get some high profile people to shout with us, we can over turn court judgments without engaging in the court process.

For me it shows that for a surprising and alarmingly high proportion of people, nothing is more important or valuable than their own opinions, no matter what incredibly flimsy foundations these opinions are built upon.

Actually, thinking about it I am naive to find this surprising, as for years I have been on the receiving end of it on this site - if I challenge people about things I know about but they don't, this is met with fury, allegations that I am 'rude' and I am reported to HQ for the crime of not giving their opinions the respext they seem to think they can simply demand.

It's a really interesting phenomenon isn't it? If we just keep shouting, and get some high profile people to shout with us, we can over turn court judgments without engaging in the court process.

Unfortunately, media reporting of a number of recent cases have given the public the misconception that is the case.
It was, as presented by the media, the outpouring of public support that prevented Jeremy Clarkson from being prosecuted after his fracas.
And, more seriously, Joanna Lumleys involvement was reported as the turning point in securing the rights of former Gurkhas.

There are daily reports of injustices being overturned or revisited. A case on my local radio station today; sentences of individuals found guilty of manslaughter last year have been reduced. The families of those men have been publicly campaigning for months - why wouldn't the public assume that their campaign had an effect (rather than it being due process) and so do the same when they perceive an unjustice?

How ill informed and deluded are the people on that Facebook page? Proclaiming, as fact, that Rebecca Minnock has been sent to jail "by her husband"?!...
The resulting posts are pretty appalling - can't quite see how they're allowed to stand? Surely posting outright lies, repeating the vile allegations that the courts have said are entirely unfounded, is cause to have the page took down?

They are ill informed idiots that are desperately clutching at straws in anyway their tiny little minds can think of.

They are fighting for the truth... which can be easily read as the judgements have been released publicly. The judge also stated that there had been an exceptionally high level of investigation due to RM's unfounded allegations, the mother didn't appeal, I doubt she would have had reason to, or even attend one of the hearings.

They are calling for a 're-trial' as it is a 'travesty of justice'.

It's not difficult to imagine what kind of personality RM really is judging by her friends attitudes. I didn't believe that poor little victim crocodile tears act she presented to the media for one second.

I can't seem to find it, but as discussed earlier in this thread, I thought the judge had given the father and the guardian until yesterday to give their opinion on RM and her contempt.

I have a feeling that the friend on on the Facebook group that announced that the father has decided RM will be going to jail does seem to be in contact with RM. Reading between the lines, I think the father and/or the guardian are of the opinion that RM should serve time for her contempt of court.

Found it,

"The father and the guardian will decide by 4.30 p.m. on
Wednesday 17th June 2015 whether either of them wishes to bring contempt proceedings against the mother and, if so, will issue notices to that effect by 4.30 on Thursday, 18th June 2015. I will also give further consideration to this issue of contempt once the parties have decided upon the positions that they take; I think that the father, in particular, has a right to reflect on this. It is not an issue that has simply gone away and there needs to be a very clear message that parties cannot behave in the way that this mother has behaved."

By my reckoning, I think the Facebook group 'urgent update' is true, judging by the timings and we will have it confirmed at some point after 4.30pm today.

Doubt the judge will be impressed that the Facebook group has announced this as he hasn't yet made it public. People that behave this way simply do not do themselves any favours. In their minds they are eternal victims and the judgements are going to be even harsher due to their very public declarations of some perceived injustice.

The tragedy is that they think they are 'supporting' RM, when the reality is that they are doing anything but supporting her case and making it worse for her.

Presumably, the court have sought the fathers/guardians decision as to whether to file contempt proceedings because the Order that was made would have contained the fairly standard phraseology that would allow Ethan contact with Rebecca over and above that in the Court Order if the father/guardian agreed to it?

If the court pursued contempt proceedings against the wishes of the father/guardian, then they could, during those proceedings, claim that they had given Rebecca permission to disappear with Ethan for 17 days, so undermining the contempt case against her?

In any event, they have been given until 4:30 today to file notices if they wish the court to consider contempt - if they do, then it is up to Rebecca to present evidence to the court that her actions were justified.

It appears that they now 'know' RM will be facing contempt proceedings and I think, from the seriousness of the judges reaction to Andrew Butt, that RM is going to be in serious trouble.

If, as RM seems sure of, her actions were fully justified - why are her supporters so worried about her going to jail?

Plenty of mothers face enforcement action and frequently, they have perfectly good reasons for contact not taking place - child is ill, distressed, family bereavement.... This is no different.

Given her self-assured DM interview the day before she handed herself in, her supporters should be confident that she can convince the judge that she was acting in Ethan's best interests, surely?

Peruvian,

I think the father and guardian were asked for their opinion to assist the judge in his decision. I don't believe it would affect contact matters in anyway as you describe.

I believe RM had already been ordered to have supervised contact and that is why she went missing with the child. I can't see how that decision will change.

Ultimately, the judge makes the decisions, not the parents, and the judge will be furious that RM took the law into her own hands and will be dealt with accordingly.

The father and guardian submitted their opinions yesterday by 4.30pm.

If RM is going to face contempt proceedings, notice will be issued by 4.30pm today. I'm sure he will make his judgement publicly.

"Plenty of mothers face enforcement action and frequently, they have perfectly good reasons for contact not taking place - child is ill, distressed, family bereavement.... This is no different"

I don't agree with this statement at all, mothers do not frequently face enforcement action due those reasons. And this case is absolutely extremely different to the things you mention.

This mother has been found to have emotionally abusing her child and then abducted the child in an effort to gain publicity and sympathy to try and manipulate the media, public and court.

To be honest, the FB support group has no idea what they talking about so I wouldn't try and understand whether they think RM can manipulate a judge, clearly, she will not be able to do that.