Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

And the 'courageous' wannabe child suicide bomber had been rumbled at the checkpoint. He only gave himself up at that point

Exactly, Shakshuka - but then we're told on here that actually he "somehow found the strength and morality etc to NOT do" and "did the 'right' thing and trusted these people to help him"

Nobody' suggesting that anyone involved in this awful conflict is blameless - I don't thnk they ever have - but sometimes the wilful blindness and downright deceit of the Israel haters is downright disturbing

Exactly .

Here's his interview with the Bbc.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3899015.stm

So you see, yruapita, he was allowed to talk to foreign journalists.

This culture of martyrdom and glorifying death is bonkers but seems to be a feature of many Islamic societies.

Actually shakshuka, you are the one who initially declared that the boy changed his mind. Will know better to double check your statements next time.

As for the media, the Israelis paraded the boy on the same day in front of international media but didnt allow him to speak to foreign journalists.

The culture of apartheid and killing Palestinian children is a heinous crime against humanity, but seems to be daily feature of life in Israel. A source of entertainment for many. The people you vote in are voted on credentials of murder and barbaric acts against a Palestinian people where half of the population are children, then you try to align yourself with the civilised world. You enjoy the terror of mothers desperately trying to save their children. You watched from the safety of your own home mocking their plight and declaring their trauma a 'roof party'. Dehumanising the Palestinians on a daily basis has turned an oppressive nation quite beastly and rabid.

He changed his mind when hebwas caught'

The expectation was that he should have blown himself up there and then.

I'm very interested why you're so obsessed with the Palestinians and Israelis. Are you Palestinian or Israeli? A search of your user name shows hundreds of posts on this topic and precious few on anything else other than a bit of outrage on any questions that don't reflect so well on Muslims.

Why have you almost exclusively posted about Israel? Its certainly not the worst or only humanitsiran situation.

As a British Muslim of Pakistani origin why are you not posting about the Pakistani genocide of the ahmadis? Why are you not demonstrating about that?

Personally, .I think the Muslim obsession with Israel is to cover up the far worse abuses in the Muslim world. Its far easier to focus on an external enemy than to be introspective which takes far more moral fibre. I mean, if the iman is ranting about Israel and how all the brothers and sisters need.to unite against the little Satan then there's no need to discuss what happened in rotherham and what needs to change in the community as a result.

And in all those hundreds of posts, I dont' think there's one that can even admit ANYTHING positive about Israel or ANY responsibility or criticism of the Palestinians.

Ive also posted a lot and have posts criticising BOTH sides and also recgonising what i consider positive developenebts on BOTH sides.

You seem brain washed to be honest.

My reaction to this is threefold. Firstly, from the video footage, this child appears to have some kind of learning disability, and is no doubt naive and gullible, judging from his reactions and responses, particularly to the questioning. as a 14-15-16 year old he also seems quite stunted physically.
Secondly, it's well known that there are a range of factors acting as triggers to suicide. These include the demographic risk factors of being male, being relatively young, and being single/widowed/separated/divorced. Then there are social risk factors of being unemployed/insecurely unemployed/retired, having a poor level of social support (hence so frequently seen in prisoners, immigrants, refugees and the bereaved), or having been through a recent life crisis such as losing a friend or relative or having experienced physical abuse. On top of that are clinical risk factors, such as undiagnosed or improperly treated psychiatric disorders and physical illnesses such as cancer or diabetes. Of course suicide bombing isnt necessarily exactly the same animal, but I'd be very surprised if a single Palestinian suicide bomber hadn't experienced one, or more likely several of those circumstances, particularly the bereavement of friends and family which must have touched every single family multiple times in the last 6/7 decades. I think we need to start looking at why 'these terrorists' are so damaged and how to stop the endlessly futile cycle of worsening violence. I also happen to believe that the 'martyr' and 'glorification' view is an (unhealthy) response from a deeply wounded society that is unable to deal with the damage evidenced by suicides. Im sure suicide is actually forbidden by islam as is the killing of innocents.

Thirdly, while this case is of course a hideous example of exploitation, it bothers me that this has generated much more discussion than the several instances of palestinian children killed in the last few weeks. For me it just highlights the issues of not being able to ignore the root causes and having to keep in mind proportionality. Not saying that the baby's death isn't tragic, but it does always seem to be the case that Israeli lives are 'worth more' than Arab lives. Or that an american Palestinian's death is worthy of an investigation whereas a 'Palestinian palestinian's' isn't.

It is interesting that you felt the need to do a quick search on my posting history. Does the fact that I am a British Muslim of Pakistani origin make my points any more or less valid?

Why does my posting history have any relevance to this thread? Why do you question my religion and ethnicity in relation to this thread? You could just concentrate on the points that I have made rather than trying to fathom out my nationality, my religion, my ethnic origin.

Its interesting that up until now you were asking why I wasnt outraged by Syria, Iraq, IS. Now that you know that I have Pakistani heritage, you feel that I should be more concerned about the Pakistanis and ahmedis! Still deflecting. I shall have to say to you that feel free to go ahead and start a thread about Pakistani ahmedis. On a side note, I am British, born and bred. My links to the UK are stronger than my links to Pakistan. UK is my homeland. Will you now ask why I am not posting about the Daily Mail and eroding social values! I see you also threw in the sex grooming thing as my responsibility. Rest assured, DH and I were involved in organising a seminar about the 'asian' sex grooming gangs problem and ways to tackle it. It was delivered by asians and muslim professionals. Attended by professionals social services, police etc and oh also EDL turned up too! EDL listened and commented that the talk made a lot of sense! Ie: the race and religion was a factor, NOT a cause! I am not afraid of pointing my finger at 'muslim' countries either. Anything else you would like to throw at me? I am sure there is!

Its far easier to focus on an external enemy than to be introspective which takes far more moral fibre

Do you feel that you are more introspective and therefore have far more 'moral fibre', or do you feel that I lack moral fibre? I wonder if my skin colour, ethnic origin and religion have had some bearing on this opinion of yours. Spread a little more apartheid.

We are all Palestinians.

You still haven't explained why you're so obsessed with Israel yruapita almost to the exclusion of everything else. And why the Muslim community as a whole is so obsessed. You jsut repeat the hyperbole.

In all your hundreds of posts, you haven't once criticised the Palestinians. At all. Smacks of brainwashing.

What's wrong with looking at your posts or bringing up your background? You shouldn't be ashamed of it. I'm also British born and.bred yet you constantly bring up my background!

We are all sri lankan Tamils/chechens/ahmadis /Pakistani shiites /Coptic Christians /Kurds

Ah, so now I am brainwashed.....

What terminology would you find appropriate to describe those who from the safety of their home, gleefully watched the terrified Palestinian mothers trying to save their children from imminent death, mocking their plight as 'roof party'?

Btw, yruapita, I didn't say YOU personally are responsible for all the problems of the British Muslim community. I'm not sure why you'd think that, it's not what I wrote.

Kind of like how I'm not responsible for the actions of Israel yet for reason you blame me in your rants despite me pointing out on many occasions that I don't agree with a lot of it.

It's not very nice, is it?

I saw hamas encouragong children on to the roof to protect their missiles despite having had warning to evacuate the building.

Certainly no gloating on my part, disgust perhaps?

You sit in your safe house and refuse to condemn hamas using children as human shields!

None of my Israeli friends or family have ever expressed any glee or.gloating at the deaths of any Palestinians.

There are some who do, for sure. Just like there are palsetinians who give out sweets when there are terroraattacks in Israel.

Brutal conflicts brutalise. Both sides.

Shakshuka, you are a racist and your deliberate racist remark against me calling Pakistani shiites can remain standing to show everyone the face of racism and apartheid.

I was about to post as to why i personally feel so strongly about Palestine until I saw your grotesque racism and refuse to engage any further with someone who gains amusement from racist slurs. But of course, you didnt mean that, you were talking about sunnis and shias but omitted the sunni bit to accidentally give the statement the racist meaning intended.

We are all Palestinians.

An article on Israel's ethnic cleansing peace policy here

There is nothing remotely racist about saying Pakistani shi'ites yruapita!

Unless you thought it's somehow related to the word shit in English. In which case I really question your intelligence - not quite the sharpest knife in the drawer! Although your one sided posts have perhaps reflected that as well.

But still, don't answer the question about your obsession with Israel to the exclusion of almost any other problem or issue in the world. Yes, say that it's racist to point out the genocide of pakistani shi'ites.

So this article is racist?
thediplomat.com/2014/05/early-warning-signs-of-shia-genocide-in-pakistan/

And this one?
www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/09/abdul-hazara-shiite-killings-in-pakistan-are-genocide_n_2846314.html

Where are the Muslim protests about the genocide Pakistani shi'ites by Pakistani sunni Islamists?

That's OK. As I said in my earlier post, there are many reasons why the British Muslim community obsesses about Israel rather than the many other humainitarian crises across the globe.

We are all Sri Lankan Tamils/Chechens/Pakistani Shi'ites etc etc

That article you linked to about ethnic cleansing was very sloppy. Misisnformation with no supporting evidence by a controversial historian.

There is no doubt that Israel was founded on the ruins of Palestinian society and that the nakba was an absolute catastrophe for the Palestinians (although I also think that their actions - as well as the Israelis' and other external actors' - contributed to it).

But what happened (and some of it was ethnic cleansing - on both sides but the Israelis happened to win) was hardly unique at the time. There were huge population movements - of ethnic Germans back to Germany, on the Indian sub-continent with the creation of Bangladesh and Pakistan, Turkish/Greek population movements, Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries

Unfair and unjust? For sure. But it's only the Palestinians who have remained refugees out of all the huge population displacement that took place in the 20th century. Why? And why was a Palestinian state not established in 1948 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip which were ruled by Egypt and Jordan respectively?

Lebanon treats its Palestinian population horrendously. You talk about apartheid? THere's real apartheid there! Palestinians aren't allowed to work in certain professsions, hold Lebanese citizenship, live in certain areas, own property. Why is there not a peep about Lebanon's real apartheid laws?
Disclaimer: Does not justify any Israeli abuses against Palestinaisn, used to illustrate the hypocrisy (links from both Israeli and Palestinian press)
www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Wheres-the-international-outcry-against-Arab-apartheid
www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=582832

None of this justifies the current occupation, of course. That's wrong and it's current and now and needs to be ended. Israel should not be occupying another people - it's horrific for them and it's destroying Israel from within, imo.

And historical wrongs should be addressed in any peace plan through compensation. That's more than German/Indian/Greek/Turkish etc refugees ever got though - they were resettled at the time wherever they were but, fine, Palestinians developed a national identity and want their own country - fair enough (there are some Israelis who refuse to even accept Palestinian nationalism which I think is wrong, it might be modern but there is most certainly a distinct national identity).

SOme of my musings on this issue...

I'm still trying to figure out by what warped logic including Pakistani Shiites in a list of neglected oppressed minorities is racist and, apparently, an extension of apartheid.

I mentioned Sri Lankan Tamils without referring to their Sinhalese oppressors. Was that racist??? Or an extension of apartheid.

When referring to any Shiite must one always mention Sunnis to avoid racism? Would it be racist to say Iranian or Lebanese Shiites without referring to Sunnis? Does this provision only hold for Pakistanis? I've never heard that saying Shiite is racist for any nationality so I'd love to know where this comes from.

Please please yruapita enlighten me about why mention of the genocide of Pakistani Shiites is racist or, indeed, an extension of apartheid? Makes no sense to me.

I suspect you've made yourself like a complete fool, yruapita, or your bar for racism is so low I don't know how you make it through the day. You really should apologize for being so offensive.

Qnboudi

I agree with you that Palestinian society in the wb and Gaza, is traumatised and damaged. A lot of that is indeed to do with Israel, both intentionally and unintentionally, after nearly 50 years of occupation. Palestinian society is also very divided (and always has been) which Israel has always successfully exploited leading to a very paranoid society.

But there is also a wider global Islamic extremist movement which glorifies martyrdom. Maybe suicide and the murder of innocents is forbidden but extreme Islam celebrates it. There is a reason why hardly any suicide bombers (I think none but I'm not 100% sure) have been Palestinian Christian despite them being very involved previously in 'mainstream' terrorism (eg George Habash of the pflp).

You're right that Palestinian lives are less valued and less reported and that's wrong of course. Every suspicious death should be investigated and it doesn't always happen.

i'm sorry i've only skim read and am not really engaged at the minute because i have a lot going on in rl.

for the record though i've been posting on mn for about 6years on a range of boards and with some namechanges along the way. to say again why this is so important to europeans is that a lot of it is being done in their name, that their economies are choosing to continue to trade and in fact give trading concessions to israel and are even selling them weapons not to mention that despite public opinion politicians spoke up in support of israel's actions. also that israel tries to present itself as 'as civilised and democratic' as europe whilst acting in ways that are abhorrent then distracts with saying argh but we're better than country x with no democracy, open trading with the eu and massive financial backing from the US. it IS a unique case and it is relevant to us.

also we are a multi-cultural country with a non assimiliation approach approach here and the idea of giving money and trade agreements to a country with an apartheid system and massive oppression based on ethnicity is alien to say the least. to have our leaders say 'we support it' is outrageous for many people here who live in multi cultural areas, send their children to multi cultural schools, expect their children to be educated in tolerance and awareness of different cultures, religions etc.

a) there is no apartheid in Israel or oppression on the basis of ethnicity. There are Arab supreme court judges (one of whom jailed the ex-president), senior army officers, ministers and members of parliament, senior civil servants and academics . There are also many Israeli Jews of Arab origin. Its a nationalistic conflict and increasingly religious one, not an ethnic one. There IS apartheid in Lebanon but noone mmentions that because it's not Israel.

b) The uk doesn't give money to Israel. It does however give shed loads to Pakistan with its massive oppression and true (rather rhetorical) genocide of Shiites (is that racist?!) and ahmedis. Why no protest about that?

None of this means that criticism of Israel isn't necessarily justified. The hypocrisy of the obsession with Israel, especially that of the Muslim world, is a separate issue. But its certainly hypocritical ans self serving.

And the reason why many uk politicians support Israel (to a certain extent - the neyanyahu govt certainly is testing the limits!) is because the Palestinians are also responsible for the situation.

Many politicians know that Israel has twice offered the Palestinians statehood and the Palestinians refused because they seem to have a problem with declaring an end to the cpnflcit without the whole shebang.

Most people, at least those who are unbiased, realise that both Israel and the Palestinians are to blane, perhaps with different levels of culpability at different times, bur certainly neither side can claim the moral high ground - not the Palestinians because of their victimhood nor the Israelis because.of their democracy and liberal /western values (at home at least) .

Can you confirm please that it is considered legal, socially acceptable, and not uncommon for non-Jews to take land from Jews, throw them out of their homes and demolish them, and build a new non-Jewish settlement, or a non-Jewish museum, or a non-Jewish archaeological exhibit, on the land?

Or does it just work the other way?

No, I've said many times that both the occupation and the building of settlements is wrong - morally, legally and ethically. It is unjust and I certainly don't support it. Israel should not be occupying another people. It is terrible for them and also destroying Israel from within. I have consistently posted this opinion.

That's why it's so frustrating that the Palestinians turned down Annapolis in 2008 - the occupation could have been ended then. Why didn't they accept and build their own state??? As a result, Netanyahu was voted in and, since then, any peace accord is getting further and further away (most recently because of Israeli rather than Palestinian actions, at least in the WB rather than Gaza).

But it's not because it's Jews versus non-Jews. In fact, there are many Israeli non-Jewish inhabitants of settlements (not the extreme settlers who tend to be religiously motivated but the big settlement blocs near the green line which will be part of Israel under any peace agreement and land swaps). Legally (by Israeli law ), Israeli Arabs could live in settlements but, for obvious reasons they choose not to.

israel's reputation worleide wide is that it is an apartheid state

Israel apartheid on buses who will be the Palestinian Rosa Parks?

Israel is really on a downward spiral wrt humanity. Disgusting apartheid.

Boycott Israel.

BTW, piglet john, most settlements were built on open land or privately owned Palestinaisn land which was sold to settlers (considered treason by Palestinians because of the results).

It doesn't justify them - it's not Israeli land and Israel shouldn't be moving its civilian population on to an occupied territory which is under military law - but it's not quite the 'throwing people out of their houses' scenario.