Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

And three or more million of those in Israel are Mizrahi, fwiw.

I think IS has far more to do with the internal politics of the ME trying to keep a balance between Shia Iran and Sunni Saudi Arabia and the mass of related and unrelated sectarian tensions than antagonism caused by Israel.

Israel though is not exactly a shy little country though is it. IIRC it was deeply involved in African power struggles during the last century in addition to wrangling with near neighbours.

Grammar and sentence stucture gone to pot, sorry.

geographical size is nothing compared to military capacity and influence on worldwide stage.

sam The idea that without Israel the Arab states would all be paragons of democracy and freedom is laughable.

yes it is laughable but funnily enough NO ONE said that. best to engage with reality rather than strawman shite of your usual posting.

incidentally in the late 1940's europe would not have been the peaceful perfect place you're portraying it as but recovering from a world war! also very recent successful (as in popular) fascist movements for which support did not instantly disappear and in which people had lost family and friends at the hands of enemies within europe.

I'm not saying it is a perfect place. My home country is still a dictatorship and it's European, ffs. But even that is a stable country. The only properly unstable region is Ukraine imo.

But you were pretty much saying that a lot of the unrest in the ME, outside of Israel/Palestine, was caused by Israel/Palestine. If Israel had been created in, I don't know, the Channel Islands or something, and became aggressive, and was backed by many countries, then we wouldn't just let it happen, but it wouldn't cause dictatorships, mass civil wars and the rise of a group of ultra religious Christians saying convert or die. Even WW2 didn't make that happen in the UK.

Not geographical size- it would be lower down the list, but population size.

no i'm saying that israel, and the motives that created it and the motives that have supported it and funded it having hte biggest military in the region and carte blanche to ignore international law and human rights without sanction is an integral part of the unrest in the middle east.

if you go back to what i was saying about elites and them not having national or religious affiliations but using them to manipulate the masses you might understand what i'm saying. it's one mighty move on a chessboard.

THB - what were the motives that created Israel? Probably that the Russians thought it would be a Socialist bulwark in the ME, while the Americans hoped it would be friendly to them. But Israel's main ally up to 1967 was probably France. Europe refused to arm Israel in 1973, and refused to allow American planes to refuel while doing so.This scarcely suggests a Western conspiracy. And are you suggesting now that IS are so upset by Israeli human rights valuations that they goes around beheading hostages on camera? That's stretching it a bit, even for an anti-Zionist....

What do you mean a move on the chess board? I'm sure there are a lot of plans about the ME, and it suits a fair few that it be currently in turmoil, but for the UK at least, sending in aid and planes etc, it's also a costly mess we have very, very little to gain from, thinking about Syria and Iraq.

realistically if there had been no Israel there would be no IS,

Sorry, but despite your frantic back-pedalling, for me any tiny pretence of credibility you ever had disappeared with that one incredibly revealing remark

TheHoneyBadger - you are going to have to try harder to back up blaming Israel for IS. Your attempts so far are deeply unconvincing. I think the Sunni/Shia conflict in the region has roots going back 1000 years, not just since 1948.

Any other conflicts worldwide and over the past millenium that you would like to blame Israel for?

It's not just a figment of Honey's imagination. www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Bennett-blasts-Kerry-for-linking-Israeli-Palestinian-conflict-to-ISIS-proliferation-379080

It turns out that even when a British Muslim beheads a British Christian, there will always be those who blame the Jews - he says it how I wish I could have said it.

in a tabloid-esque completely misrepresenting what was said way?

Its a bit concerning when people wish to express sentiments of the far right natfali bennett, who happens to be buddies with the delightful Ayelet Shaked. Shaked talks of killing Palestinans, Bennett has already been there, done that: “I have killed lots of Arabs in my life – and there is no problem with that.”
The israeli knesset has a lot of murderers and wannabe murderers it seems.

As for blood on hands terminology, the opening line of this article uses the phrase in relation to the Palestinians.
www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-Politics/Bennett-under-fire-for-comments-about-killing-Arabs-321467
Is it only bad if the phrase is used against Israel? Is it ok to use against Palestinians?

The conspiracy theorists on this thread probably believe the mossad brought down the twin towers.

Just a correction of historical fact.
No one 'gave' anyone Israel.

The British had had enough of Palestine and the Jews and Arabs fighting.

They turned the issue over to the un.

The un voted for partition in 1947- the two state solution (interesting we've.come full circle back.to.it)

The Jews accepted. The.Arabs.said no because they thought they'd win the war.

They didn't.

No, it doesn't justify any past or current abuse of human rights (I'm a mind reader!).

After the 6 day war, before there.were any settlements, the Arabs issued the famous 3 nos of Khartoum. The settlements are stupid and.idiotic but its not like there was peace beforehand.

Harry

Your analysis of IS is more what ive heard. Unlike al -qaeda, they're relatively insular. They're not so interested in Israel beyond the usual extremist-Muslim blind hatred

Sergeantmajor

Hadn't you heard that it was an Israeli who killed Ali a thousand years ago?!

I think naftali bennet and his politics are disgusting.

But he's right about IS and he's right about the hypocritical obsession with Israel.

The BBC says that the UN is going to have an inquiry into the use of UN buildings by militants storing weapons and the attacks on UN buildings over the summer.

Seems like there is a growing appetite in Israel for something more extreme than nutty yahu at the moment. They like naftali's views on killing palestinians, apartheid and wiping out more of Palestine, hence he is getting more popular every day

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1ef56978-5939-11e4-9546-00144feab7de.html#axzz3GsRzssTC

Every Israeli PM tends to try to outdo the previous one with vile barbarity. I have no doubt that naftali will reach new heights in barbarity too.

Yes, unfortunately there is growing extremism among both the Palestinians and Israelis.

One feeds off the other.
Very sad.

it's hard to imagine how, in modern times, you could go more extreme than nutty. though perhaps it takes that 'plunge' to push the world to finally have to intervene.