Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

"Nothing is likely to change in Israel until its public feels that impunity for occupations and settlements is eroding.” Daniel Levy of the European Council on Foreign Relations.

Very true.

The erosion is happening.
So far we still hear it described as anti-Semitism and Israel-hating, which are not true.

The "statements of hatred and antisemitism" highlighted in the guardian piece and regularly trotted out on this forum are wearing mighty thin. Erosion is very definitely happening, and Zochrot - and their "Truth Commission" - are making a big contribution to this: m.aljazeera.com/story/20141298810502750 .

Meanwhile, 'democracy' in Israel is also being eroded: www.972mag.com/high-court-rules-against-zoabi-upholds-knesset-suspension/99916/ .

The minister you refer to was a terrorist that murdered 2 boys and was given life but was released in a prisoner exchange so easy to focus on misrepresentation and ignore facts .... Such a peaceful man ... Some of the posts on here are highly disturbing to say the least

Well qualified to be an Israeli PM then.

how many people did the terrorist Menachem Begin and his gang murder?

Of course, Nelson Mandela was imprisoned for 27 years for use of violence to overthrow a state. And Menachim Begin boasted in 1974 of being not just 'the father of terrorism' in the Middle East, but 'in the whole world' (Russell Warren Howe, in "Seeing the Light: Personal Encounters with the Middle East and Islam", Curtiss & McMahon, 1977, cited by Alison Weir). Just because Abu Ein's Palestinian, doesn't mean you can ignore the context.

There are also quite a few children incarcerated by israel (www.dci-palestine.org/content/child-detainees). No doubt they, too, are not to be considered 'peaceful people' (subtext: who don't deserve to live?) since they're on the wrong side of Israeli 'law and order'. Disturbing indeed.

I'm not saying I agree with all policies in Israel exactly as I don't agree with all policies here , however I do believe they have the right to exist and defend their country without being held to different standards to other counties the BDS are a bunch of liars and anti Semites along with Hamas ( you know the terrorists that torture gaza and the Palestinians and call for the destruction of Israel and jewish people in their charter) this is not just about Israel but a race and religion ... Fine don't agree with all the policies but don't call for the destruction of the jewish race

I don't think anyone on here has said that Israel has no right to exist. Palestine also has a right to exist, although the State of Israel will not permit it.

I am SURE I have seen no-one on here calling for the destruction of the Jews. So who is your post aimed at?

broken record time:

John, Israel has on several occasions offered the palestinians more or less everything they asked for yet they refused. Each and every time.

so why is the finger pointed at Israel as a 'barrier to peace' when they have clearly made nit only offers, but ha e expelled Israelis from their homes in order to exchange 'land for peace'.

Israel was then rewarded with rockets and suicide bombings.

you are woefully ill informed and so obviously anti Israel at any cost.

I agree that no country should be above criticism. And Israel is certainly not perfect.

Please though can we get our facts right: Just to clarify re the 'west bank':

The West Bank is disputed territory. Discriminating against Israeli communities in the West Bank presumes the outcome of negotiations on borders and unfairly punishes Israel.

These borders can only be determined through Palestinian-Israeli negotiations, as stipulated in the Oslo Accords. Boycott activists cannot possibly know the outcome of those negotiations.

Israeli exports from the West Bank are primarily produced in Area C, which is under Israeli administration per the Oslo Accords. The vast majority come from “consensus settlements” which most peace proposals have assumed will be incorporated into Israel through land swaps.

In 2013 the Arab League and Palestinian Authority endorsed land swaps as a formula for a peace agreement.

The partial boycott discriminates against Jews. It penalizes Jewishenterprises, but not Palestinian enterprises, built in the disputed territory.

To correct an earlier post someone made: nothing Israel does has ever 'prevented palestine from existing'.

It is the other way around - the Palestinian Arab leadership OPENLY states it will only rest when there are NO JEWS in the Middle East.

It's in the Hamas Charter. You don't have to take my word for it - there is enough material out there where Hamas openly states these things:

To reiterate: just read the Hamas Charter. It's right there.

Re my earlier message, I haven't seen any posts directly stating that on here although clearly there are some people who's underlying tone is somewhat misguided and worrying ...I'm querying why one would support ( be it directly or in directly ) a terrorist organisation that clearly states it's mission for the destruction of Israel AND the jewish race regardless where they reside

No, SouthLondonMum, The West Bank is not "disputed territory"

It is invaded and occupied territory.

Any bank robber can describe ownership of his bag of swag as "disputed."

this thread is incredible long and impossible to read it all without becoming angry at some of these comments. I have come onto mumsnet very recently as a source of information and community. I find this thread completely out of line. Why are so many people interested in criticizing Israel? Where are all your condemnations of Iran, or China, or the dozens of other countries that committ incredible attrocities against their citizens? Israel is a FREE DEMOCRATIC country. Women have EQUAL rights. Israeli Arabs sit in important positions in the goverment and in the KNESSET, there are even Arabs on the Supreme Court. Show me another country in the Middle East where JEWS are in the government. Show me a country in the Middle East where there are Christians allowed to practice their religion. Are there any where women have equal rights? I imagine 95% of you on this thread have never been to Israel or the Middle East. I am just in shock at the hidden hatred in this thread. The Jewish people have a right to their country. Israel is more like the UK than the rest of the Middle East. Christian churches and sites are protected. That isn't happening in other areas of the Middle East. In fact, IS is blowing up churches and beheading children. Where are your protests and boycotts?

Mumof2 I've visited Israel and palestine.

I live in the Middle East.

You'll see from my previous posts that having seen how the Israeli's treat the Palestinians with my own eyes, my views have been shaped.

Given Israel's instant criticism of any country that votes to recognise a Palestinian state (on grounds that this 'compromises hopes for peace', ha!), it is downright hypocritical to complain that anyone - whether it's true or not - objects to the existence of Israel.

And let's just think about the intentions behind the nationality bill for a moment. Where could that possibly be going?

"Israel is more like the UK than the rest of the Middle East"

In the part of the UK where I live, nobody gets thrown out of their home, or has their land stolen, or their village destroyed, due to them having the wrong religion or ethnicity. Nobody can lose their job as a result of speaking in their native language in their native land.

piglet john - wow - you think that is true? You seriously believe someone speaking arabic and is therefore fired is the norm? The Israeli citizens are more like Brits than they are like other middle eastern people. They like the same things. They are more Western than Middle Eastern. I love how you all avoided the issue I posed - WHERE ARE YOUR CONDEMNATIONS OF THE REAL BARBARIC NATIONS OUT THERE?

Qn - Other countries have declared themselves Muslim. Why can't Israel declare itself Jewish? Why would you have an issue with that? If you do - get on the UN about any nation being based on a specific religion. Good luck with that!

where did you find the word "norm?"

It does however happen and is lawful in Israel.

a quick google search on this "being fired for speaking arabic" came up with very old stories - I have to say this is the first time I have ever heard this. How about the fact that Jews aren't allowed to pray at their Holiest Site - and that's in ISRAEL? That seems like complete insanity to me. Oh yeah - that's because someone built a MOSQUE on top of it. I wonder which was there first? I wonder which religion is older? hmmmm

To say that Israel had anything to do with IS is absurd. IS shares the same goal as Hamas, Al Queda, Hezbollah, Boko Haram - converting all non Muslims to Islam.

IS started like this, kindly get your facts straight:

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story

" I have to say this is the first time I have ever heard this."

Where are your usual sources for stories about Israel, then? I wonder what other things you have never heard of.

Yes good point 'mumof2andlovingit'.

I spent some years working in the region, and yes that includes Israel. It is the only democracy in the region and the millions of Israeli Arabs who live there, and also hold roles in parliament and even serve in the army can and do testify to this.

The development whereby Israeli Jews are not allowed free access to the most sacred Jewish site in the Jewish nation is astonishing.

Let us compare this with Mecca in Saudi Arabia where no NON MUSLIMS are allowed to set foot. Now THAT is a religious apartheid!

There are even separate roads for non Muslims in Saudi Arabia.

If some people wish to bash Israel then it's only fair that those countries committing far more egregious crimes also get a bashing. Otherwise it is a total double standard.

Mumof2 - my issue is not with Israel describing itself as a Jewish state, but with the proposed controversial legislation that would give Jews preferential rights. Informative article about it here in the Economist.

SouthLondonMum "If some people wish to bash Israel then it's only fair that those countries committing far more egregious crimes also get a bashing."

You are of course entirely at liberty to start threads about the misdeeds of other countries. However they are no excuse for the actions of the State of Israel, and they would be diversions on this thread.

PIGLET - the land is not 'stolen', I'm afraid you do not get to define Israel's boundaries and overall international rulings etc.

And Israel doesn't need an 'excuse'. Tell you what, you do what I did and actually GO there, and go to the southern towns that for years have been bombarded by Hamas missiles, and then maybe you will have a more accurate grasp of the situation.

Oh so easy for armchair critics who sit in safety to judge those who have an existential threat right on their doorstep.

Have you even read the Hamas charter?