Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 17/10/2014 08:10

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
QnBoudi · 08/11/2014 00:57

It seems the statement that 'all of Jerusalem was Palestinian' has been taken to mean 'all its residents were Arabs (not Jews/other)' rather than, as I understood it, referring to its geographical location.

As for dismissing the claims about employment restrictions as 'lies', there may well be nominal rights but as b'tselem itself documents, these have been drastically eroded by the practice of revoking the residence permits that native Arabs have and forcing residents to jump through hoops under the "centre of life" rules: www.b'tselem.org/Jerusalem/revocation_of_residency#main.

I know shakshuka has expressed some sympathy for the palestinians, but i think it's a pity the 'niceties' of these points seem to be more worthy of attention than the main focus of the pieces - the very disturbing degree of violence and the 'flagrant' breaches of international law.

Yruapita · 08/11/2014 01:01

Israeli settlers also enjoy bullying and attacking Palestinian school children
Israeli law makers didn't think to deal with the aggressors, but instead decided that soldiers should see to the children passing through instead. Oh they love the status quo. The Palestinians have every right to fight against the evil perpetrated against them.

Boycott Isrsel!

Yruapita · 08/11/2014 01:08

How to terrorise a developmentally disabled boy on suspicion of throwing a stone with a good dose of racist abuse hurled by settlers.

www.btselem.org/press_releases/20141020_soldiers_detain_developmentally_disabled_child_in_hebron

Shakshuka · 08/11/2014 13:01

No, it's very important to be truthful Qnboudi and also recognise where both sides need to change.

Id rather discuss what can be done to actually achieve peace.

Demonising Israelis and beatifying Palestinians like yruapita (i could post endless links on how awful the palesrinians are) doesn't help promote peace, quite the opposite .
Of course that statmernt about Jerusalem being Palestinian was meant to deny the Jewish connection. It happens a lot. Otherwise it's up their in stupidity with golda meir 's 'I'm a Palestinian' comment

The situation is

Yruapita · 09/11/2014 01:19

In the latest killing in Israel, police killed a palestinian man claiming their lives were in danger. However, a video has emerged showing that the palestinian walking away as police shoot him. Link:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29968181

QnBoudi · 09/11/2014 10:32

Here are 2 very well argued and deeply disturbing articles outlining how 'truth' is/has long been hidden from the public and manipulated by the US through 'weapons of mass deception':
www.mepc.org/journal/middle-east-policy-archives/us-policy-israel/palestine-1948?print
and
www.uiowa.edu/~tlcp/TLCP%20Articles/21-1/gendzier_final.pdf.

sergeantmajor · 10/11/2014 16:36

QnBoudi - I read the articles that you linked to. In summary, they explained the strategic advantages for the US in backing Israel.

With regard to "weapons of mass deception", I think the world is becoming more aware that what the government or news tell us may not be the whole truth. The internet has helped that. But at the same time the internet has less reliable credentials than traditional sources.

I have a bit of knowledge about the Arab-Israeli conflict, so I can gasp at distortions, omissions and inaccuracies. And then when I move to the next world news story I do wonder how much of the truth I am getting (and have no way of knowing).

Here is a [[http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/183033/israel-insider-guide]] to an article by an Associated Press journalist that has gone viral, on the way the press reports this conflict, and what it leaves out. Yes, you'll notice it is from an Israeli perspective, but the central message should concern all of us.

An example from the link... how even the Jerusalem office of the Associated Press refuses to print stories that detract from the pre-determined narrative, e.g. omitting to report on a major peace initiative from the Israelis that was rejected by the Palestinians.

halfdrunkcoffee · 11/11/2014 10:08

Clicky link for SM's article

PigletJohn · 11/11/2014 10:32

the FT says:

"Is European impatience with Israeli intransigence towards the Palestinians reaching a point of rupture? Is EU frustration with Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister’s expansion of Jewish settlements on occupied Arab land, proscribed by international law, inclining Europeans to force the issue of a Palestinian state?"

"Until recently, successive Israeli governments somehow managed to convince Europeans that any political pressure would result in their being excluded from peace talks that long ago ceased even to be mere process. But Israel has been slow to realise there has been a change in sentiment in Europe, not sudden but solid, that could eventually present a challenge to its legitimacy. The shift follows a sharp rise in hostility towards Israel in western Europe, with BBC polls carried out by Gallup recording between two-thirds and three-quarters of people in the UK, Spain, Germany, France and Italy holding negative views of Israel’s policy."

halfdrunkcoffee · 11/11/2014 10:46

The Mondoweiss article linked to a few pages back links to some responses to the article by Matti Friedman.

QnBoudi · 11/11/2014 14:56

As halfdrunk notes, i already posted a criticism of that article, pointing to its "whataboutery". Here it is again FYI: mondoweiss.net/2014/10/why-are-liberal-zionists-embracing-heartless-matti-friedman. Yes, manipulation of the media is probably inevitable and worrying. I do try to be optimistic that as news sources proliferate, people will have to become more critical (no time to suck up everything) however we need to ask ourselves why, eg the great american public was so happy to swallow the 'humanitarian line' about 'defending' israel and not question the real motives of those both in charge of strategy and responsible for repressing other perspectives/realities. Perhaps those days of feeling looked after by our governments are gone and the overarching cynicism that has replaced any sense of trust and faith in our 'leaders' will keep the distortions and misinformation attempts in check. After all, the soviets played a good game of 'pravda' and knew full well what a load of cobblers they were being fed. However, i also fear that people will only really deal with things superficially if they're not sufficiently interested or involved in some way. I find talk of 'viral' sources therefore quite dangerous cos everyone wants to know 'what's going on' even if they don't care enough to think about it or evaluate it.

TheHoneyBadger · 11/11/2014 15:10

if there is to be a real tipping point (re: the mass public opinion evidenced in polls actually leading to change in european policy to israel) it would have to be via political parties being forced somehow to actually engage with and represent popular opinion. re: actually having to win votes by representing people rather than tribalism or default (eg. anything is better than tories so vote labour).

at the minute 80% of the uk public thinking/believing/wanting something doesn't mean a thing when it comes to policy.

TheHoneyBadger · 11/11/2014 15:13

(however i do think we're reaching a kind of tipping point whereby the media is so flagrantly not representing public opinion eg. the bbc not reporting on the marches and demonstrations for gaza that that may effect change. re: the msm only remains ms if it can sell it's products so maybe it will be the media that has to come to better represent people and the media and politics are so entangled it's hard to see how one could change without the other iyswim. so maybe the media changing forces the hand of the powers that be)

TheHoneyBadger · 11/11/2014 15:13

affect? effect? sorry! brain not working as i'm fasting today.

TheHoneyBadger · 11/11/2014 16:15

In what the New York Times called, 'the first public collective refusal by intelligence officers rather that combat troops'[16] to serve, on September 12, 43 veteran reserve army mid-ranking officers and soldiers (33 soldiers and 10 officers, including a major and two captains, mostly in their late 20s and 30s)[16][17][18] in the IDF's top intelligence electronic surveillance corps, Unit 8200,[19] Israel's equivalent to the NSA,[18] published a letter in Israel's most widely read newspaper,Yedioth Ahronoth, directed to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the IDF Chief of Staff Benny Gantz, Moshe Ya'alon[18] and Aviv Kochavi,[18] the head of Military Intelligence, in which they registered their refusal to participate, on the grounds of conscience, in any action designed to "harm the Palestinian population in the West Bank." [16] It took roughly a year to gather all of the signatures.[17] and its publication was delayed by the war in Gaza until hostilities ceased in order not to be seen as attacking the army in wartime.[20] According to the highest-ranking signatory, many other members of Unit 8200 support their stand, but did not add their names for fear of reactions and the personal price their involvement would exact.[21] 10 of the 43 belonged to the "circle of control" in the unit.[22]

The 43 decried the use of espionage to set up airstrikes that have inflicted casualties among civilians.[19] The letter, originally written before the recent 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict,[23] was initially reported to be unrelated to it,[24] but does mention 'the collective punishment of residents in Gaza,', that war being, according to one of the group, 'just another chapter in this cycle of violence,'[16] and calls on the Israeli public to speak up against injustices.[25] While the incidents they allude to have no relation to Operation Protective Edge, in which none participated, several avoided service during the 2014 war in Gaza by refusing to answer a call to do reserve duty, employing a variety of excuses.[21] In the light of that war, the refuseniks said they would refuse to enlist if called upon to serve in the reserve, and none had served during the July–August Gaza war.[26]

from here

funnily enough i was trying to research conscientious observers from the first world war and the price they were made to pay and up pops israel in the contemporary. hadn't heard about this recent letter.

Springheeled · 12/11/2014 23:07

Been off thread for ages and trying to catch up. The situation currently is quite worrying. I read today that a two year old has been arrested? Surely this cannot be true?

TheHoneyBadger · 13/11/2014 10:35

some details on that here springheeled along with news of IDF allegedly firing tear gas into a school without provocation. will look to see if other news sources confirm.

TheHoneyBadger · 13/11/2014 10:43

www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/15198-israeli-repression-continues-dozens-of-students-near-ramallah-suffer-gas-inhalation

also reading about female students near bethlehem being attacked by armed settlers on their way home from school and various recent attacks and killings and tons more arrests of anyone who protests who gets charged with 'rioting' apparently.

Yruapita · 14/11/2014 19:56

Israel have banned Norwegian doctor Gilbert from entering Gaza permanently! They don't like him for saying that the reason Gazans suffer from ill health is because of Israeli siege and bombing.

Link: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30054556

PigletJohn · 14/11/2014 20:03

Thank goodness the State of Israel keeps reminding the outside world of its oppression.

PigletJohn · 14/11/2014 20:13

I suppose, depending on your perspective, it is either wicked and inhumane to slaughter and maim thousands, or else it is wrong to mention that it is happening.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-doctor-mads-gilbert-evokes-conditions-in-a-gaza-hospital-9617586.html

Interestingly, an Israeli government spokesman describes the doctor as a "Jekyll and Hyde" character. In the novel, Hyde tramples a servant girl and brutally beats to death an old man, as a result of taking character-changing drugs. It would be interesting to know if the Israeli government can justify this allegation.

TheHoneyBadger · 14/11/2014 20:35

i notice the bully types go quiet when there are more voices on here.

PigletJohn · 14/11/2014 20:57

Those who support the actions of the State of Israel will be back when they can think of someone else to blame.

They will probably find a rare example of a photogenic young Palestinian receiving treatment at the hands of bountiful Israeli doctors.

Yruapita · 15/11/2014 00:55

Yes, everything at the moment is Dr Gilbert's fault. He is a massive security risk don't you see. He saves those pesky Palestinian children which means that the existence of Palestinian children is deemed a security risk to Israel. They want to be able to carry out their ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians to secure their own future and continue stealing Palestinian land. Why does the world not allow Israel to kill and build in peace? If they can just wipe out Gazans and build settlements over every inch of the West Bank, continue with apartheid in Israel, that will win over all the remaining Palestinians and there will be peace and harmony in Israel.

QnBoudi · 15/11/2014 09:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.