I'm astonished that so many people are in favour of...

[emkana]

... smacking

Of course it is NAM, but it is still discussable though! Blimey, MN would shut down if we weren't all warbling on about our child rearing thoughts, ideas, worries etc!

"Surely whatever choice people make with their own children is up to them?"

I wish people would stop saying this as it's obviiously not true. We have huge social welfare systems and legal systems to stop people harming their children. And there are many people who make bad, harmful decisions about how to treat their "own" children (though I would argue children are not just their parents' possesions) - and the community attempts tpo stop them from doing so.

The debate should be about whether smacking is harmful - if and when society decides it is, it will be banned, along with neglect, sexual abuse and other harmful things.

It is nonsense that whatever you do is OK, because they're your kids and you decide and there's no right or wrong. Nonsense.

I disagree soapbox. How do we know what is right unless we ask ourselves how we would feel in the same situation?

Whining is not a problem for me.

I'm afraid that you seem to be missing my point. Surely you should let me do what I believe to be right? (I don't want to spaek for anyone else) I give you all the reasons why I think as I do.

Let's say I believe you should all smack your children because I think it is an effective form of discipline that works. I don't think it's equates to hitting other people. I don't think it creates war mongers. Should I make you? Do think you should?

I know that most of the little twunts where I live (eg smashing windows, keying cars, beating people who challenge them about doing it) come from families that are fans of "don't do that. No. Stop it. That's naughty" - said in a lethargic, can't be arsed voice.

DS is 10 months old. He's too young to be reasoned with about trying to stick his hand in the fire. Sometimes distracting him doesn't work. At the minute a loud NO and "ah ah ah" does the trick, but if he persists after that (when he's a bit older), then we may (and I stress MAY) have to resort to the light tap on the back of the hand.

snowleopard I meant on this subject only, not generally

So have any of the people who smack read weasel's second link? What did you think?

(This is ScummyMummy in enforced name change at behest of son, btw)

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But this is an example of a subject where my point is hugely relevant. Hiting kids? Surely a line must be drawn somwhere and it is most certainly not just up to the parents.

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Hi cod. Thankyou kindly medear.

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Now you see snowleapoard, that kind of post true or not really isn't helpful. Or necessary for that matter.

"COME HERE WHILE I GIVE YOU A SMACK!"

How can that be so Iklboo? If the statistics are to be believed, then 67% of parents smack their kids. Little twunts are little twunts because no one has ever taken the time to show them how to be anything else.

parp

I'm not challenging that you think it is right - I am challenging your views as to how DD sees it!

And I am sure my parents and countless others would have used your analysis of what is right (i.e. how they would feel as opposed to how their children actually feel) and a large proportion of them would have been wrong! You might get lucky maybe your DCs will agree with you, but maybe they won't!

I have never ever come across an adult who wasn't smacked as a child say that they really resented their parents for not smacking them! NEVER!

Unlike some posters, I think it DOES make a difference if you smack your child out of anger or not because I think this is the ideal situation to have things getting out of control and when people will actually hit and not smack their child. Also, I can understand that if you are in the habit of smacking as a v regular way of diciplining your children, then hitting will be easier because it will come as a gradual process. So, in this regard, I would agree with all the charities wanting a total ban on smacking.
HOWEVER, I can also understand why most people think it is a usefull tool to have to discipline children. It certainly has worked for me along side other ways of discipline such as praise, modelling the behaviour and explaining.
And I can undertand why no one will SAY they are smacking their child. You just need to read some of the threads on MN to see the very heated debate around that subject and, except with v close friends, I would probably avoid a subject like this in real life.
I personnally think that people who would like to use other ways of discipline should be proposed other methods and that people who are reacting out of anger - wheteher shouting or smacking or calling names etc...- should be supported, much much more than they are because in my opinion THIS is much more damaging to the child than a small smack on their bottom or hand.
IMO, These numbers just show that this subject is much more complicated that just a quick comment around the idea smacking = being violent with a feable person and that it is not acceptable....

There are lies, damn lies & statistics.
25% of road accidents are caused by drunk drivers. So 75% of the other accidents are caused by people who are sober. Therefore - it must be safer to drink & drive, right (well NO obviously).

I know a lot of the parents of said little twunts. I know they don't or didn't smack their kids. Instead they either did the "no don't do that" in THAT voice (like they didn't care if they did it or not) - or they let their kids run around till all hours while they were in the pub, not caring about where their kids were or what they did.

Ignoring bad behaviour is as bad as belting children for it, perhaps

Umm, why Mrs D?

On threads like this (and on many other topics) people often say "it should be up to the parents, how you parent your own kids is your own business."

I'm pointing out that that's not true. Bot only do I disagree with it, the whole community, state and legal system disagrees with it. We do try to stop parents from harming their own kids. That's a relevant point in the smacking debate - especially in view of the evidence that smacking can degenerate into worse violence.

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I'm not suggesting that bad behaviour should be ignored. I see my lifes work as a mother is trying to get my offspring to behave & not grow up into little twunts. I just don't think that you ever need to resort to smacking.

But soapbox you don't just ask people you know, you need to ask a whole cross-section of society.
I believe good child-rearing has so much more to it than just who does and doesn't smack their child.
Which child is likely to come out best, the one that isn't smacked but parents doesn't spend enough time with them to be bothered anyway?
Or the child that is smacked as a form of discipline with caring parents who spend time with them and are careful to ensure that the children will be able to understand why it's done?

snowleopard talks sense as usual.

Oh I know bugsy - I'm agreeing with you on your point that "Little twunts are little twunts because no one has ever taken the time to show them how to be anything else". I meant that those parents who DO ignore their child's bad behaviour are abusive in another way - they are failing to teach their childres right from wrong, respecting people & property etc.
You don't have to smack as a matter of course - perhaps as a very very very final last resort.

Just like Mrs Doolittle, I don't like the 'I smack and I'm proud' attitude either.

Some people arguing against smacking seem to think that those of us who smack actually ENJOY the act.

Believe me I don't. I try to avoid administering a smack, but sometimes ds just loses it, he gets more and more defiant and unreasonable, until he CAN'T stop the cycle that he's in, and no amount of telling him that privileges have been withdrawn works (nor other techniques). Before he gets to the point where he's destroying the house and slinging stuff at me I give him a sharp smack. It STOPS him. At that point he gets put in his room to calm down, and think.

The number of times this has to happen has declined greatly. Before this year I was a non-smacker, but his behaviour was going downhill. I haven't needed to smack once in the last 2 weeks. It's a technique that is working for us.

But I'm not proud of it, nor am I ashamed of it.

Oh and I must comment on a posting made by noddy holder earlier "It is using force before discussion and reason".
Not in this house. Smacking is used when discussion and reason have been tried, but are not working. We're not all drunken sots who lash out at the first sign of cheek you know