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I'm astonished that so many people are in favour of...

686 replies

emkana · 20/09/2006 09:38

... smacking

OP posts:
kittywits · 27/09/2006 12:51

Perhaps you are right. In my mind the sort of smacking we had been discussing was the occasional considered, last resort smack! It's interesting how we assume ( maybe it's just me?) that everyone understands or is thinking about the same examples that we are.
If you are thinking about the sorts of smacking you have described then for me there is no disagreement whatsoever. It is wrong.

Bugsy2 · 27/09/2006 13:00

kittywits, in my heart I don't like any form of smacking, but I think I can concede an occasional smack in an otherwise loving environment is very probably not going to be a source of long-term damage.
So that isn't really the smacking I am concerned about. It is the thoughtlessly administered pointless & probably regular smacks that I dislike & see as bad parenting. This is why I wonder if you made it illegal would that kind of smacking die out or would it just be replaced by something worse?

kittywits · 27/09/2006 13:07

I commented in an earlier post that I thought the abuse would take different forms, probably worse because they would be harder to pin point and prove. Parents who abuse are damaged people who have probably been abused themselves. Telling them they can't smack is going to stop the abuse, the abuse will simply take a different form, very, very sad .
If you castrated a rapist it wouldn't stop them 'raping' and attacking women in the future. They would just find another way of doing it, Probably fuelled with even more rage for having their desires curatiled in the first place.

kittywits · 27/09/2006 13:08

meant ISN'T going to stop the abuse.

divastrop · 27/09/2006 13:17

kitty-feckless spongers of society?!?

as for parenting classes in pregnancy...the fluffy-wuffy ante-natal classes where they taught u 'breathing techniques'etc were bad enough.parenting classes can be a good thing-ive been to a couple and it was basically sit around chatting about all the things kids do and other parents saying'oh yeah,mine did that,its normal'or 'i found so-and -so worked really well for that type of behaviour',in a light-hearted friendly way.
but u couldnt do a perenting course before youve even met your child and dont even know if there are going to be any problems!

Babounette · 27/09/2006 13:35

kittywits, that's exactely where I am coming from. Some forms of discipline can be more damaging to the child than a smack.
It doesn't make it a worthwhile discipline tool when it is used in this way but can be better than other 'methods'.

Babounette · 27/09/2006 13:45

Just a quick comparaison.
For my work, I have been working in factories trying to improve the quality of the products going out of the place. No worker that I have met until now wanted to do a bad job but still it happened some time to time.
One reason, amongst others, for that is that the person hasn't been trained correctly.
I think it is the same for parenting. I don't know of parents who want to be bad parent or to abuse their child but some will need help, courses, etc...
Still a bit uneasy about talking over people and assuming they are lasy/bad/unresposible etc... because even if it's how it looks like at first, it is more likely that there is another reason for it. It doesn't mean that they have the right reaction, just that, like our kids, we should be talking about the behaviour not the person.

ratclare · 27/09/2006 13:55

i remember someone saying to me that you wouldnt smack an adult as you would a child and i replied that if i was shopping with my friend and she behaved in a manner that was completely out of order ,ie putting herself or others in danger of harm then yes i would have no hesitation but to give her a quick smack . I do think there is a huge difference between a quick smack and beating a child though

Bugsy2 · 27/09/2006 13:59

but ratclare most children I've seen being smacked while out shopping with their parents who have received a smack haven't been putting anyone in danger or even themselves - they've just been getting on their parents nerves.

Also, if a grown behaved in a way that endangered other people while out shopping, I would suggest that they were probably mentally unwell & a smack would be humiliating as well as inappropriate.

harpsichordcarrier · 27/09/2006 14:01

and of course a criminal offence....

kittywits · 27/09/2006 14:08

Is there anything that ISN'T criminal offence nowadays? No, I'm not going there, sorry for that

harpsichordcarrier · 27/09/2006 14:11

well kittywits assaulting another person has been a criminal offence for several hundred years in this country.
I expect if someone slapped you in the street because they didn't like your behaviour then you would be pretty glad it was a criminal offence.
it is only legal to hit someone if they are your child - the defence is reasonable chastisement. so technically hitting your child is a criminal offence prima facie, but there may be a defence available (reasonable chastisement) if you prove it.

Babounette · 27/09/2006 14:34

What the law says:

Mild smacking is allowed under a "reasonable chastisement" defence against common assault.
But any punishment which causes visible bruising, grazes, scratches, minor swellings or cuts can face action.

You don't have to defend yourself for smacking your child in a 'reasonable' way but will have if itl eaves a bruise. Now noboddy here has been saying that sort of chatisment was OK.

Socci · 27/09/2006 14:41

Message withdrawn

harpsichordcarrier · 27/09/2006 15:30

yes exactly, reasonable chastisement is a defence against common assault.
assaulting a child is only not a criminal offence if you have a defence of reasonable chastisement.
you could not possibly have that defence against another adult.
the mind really bloody boggles at that thought, tbh. if I was slapped by an adult it would make me feel angry, resentful and humiliated.
which, co-incidentally is exactly how it made me feel as a child

Socci · 27/09/2006 16:48

Message withdrawn

fatfox · 27/09/2006 19:32

Bugsy - I agree - a lot of smacking I see in "public" is from parents who seem to have few skills generally - but particularly communication skills. In fact, the wallop is often because they don't know how, or can't be bothered, to stop and communicate with their children. And the children who get hit have not usually been naughty at all - its just their parents want them to "shut up", so give them a thump.

There is also the other type, which is the occasional smack given in very extreme circumstances by a loving parent in the context of the child already knowing what the boundaries are and where the parent has considered a range of options and deems that one appropriate.

Our Mum smacked us and we never doubted she loved us. I certainly ddn't damage us emotionally or physically. She also pinched me hard once, after I had pinched another child, to show me how much it hurts. I was a bit taken aback, but actually totally understood and never pinched my friend again.

I like the idea of parenting skills classes in theory, but just imagine they would be really patronising - as they are generally designed for parents who have ASBOs taken out against them etc. i.e. they are a state inervention for people who have very few life skills, let alone parenting skills.

I think its important to be able to have this debate without falling into the trap of categorising people or judging them.

I know some fantastic caring parents who inflict what I would regard as cruel and Victorian punishments on their kids (much crueler than a smack on the thigh IMO e.g. locking them in their room to cry for two hours). But that doesn't altogether make them "bad" or "lazy" parents. I just can't bear to leave my children to cry. However, I do very occasionally use a smack on the thigh, which I find acceptable. Basic yes, but still acceptable and personally I think that's less cruel than locking a child in their room alone to cry, but there you go.

I think my views are influenced by my Mum's loving smacks (i.e. carried out to guide us in a loving protective relationship) and TBH also influenced by the fact that we have many European friends, who all smack their children a lot more frequenlty than we do, but without suffering from the the guilt trips that the British parents insist on inflicting on each other.

It would be great to have a really good debate about what does and doesn't work. Trouble is, different things work for different people. e.g. DD is very obedient - I have never had to chastise her as she always does what she is told (somewhat worrying actually). DS seems to have selective deafness and I often have to shout to get him to even respond - makes me feel like a complete fishwife

If I saw someone shout at their children the way I shout at DS sometimes, I'd probably think "what a terrible woman - her poor kids"!

kittywits · 27/09/2006 19:41

Today I smacked my three year old for biting my four year old. She knows that is a crime that merits a smack.

Socci · 27/09/2006 19:46

Message withdrawn

Socci · 27/09/2006 19:48

Message withdrawn

kittywits · 27/09/2006 19:53

Yes, I agree Socci

fatfox · 27/09/2006 20:20

Socci - I always seem to miss Super Nanny, but 6did6 buy the Super Nanny magazine yesterday.

Has anyone else read it?

That woman who locks her 3 year old in her room did it as punishment for the little girl leaving her room after she'd been put to bed. I just lead mine back to bed and tell them to go to sleep. I was a bit shocked when she told me, she said "I just can't stand to be disobeyed". Mind you, who am I to judge?

fatfox · 27/09/2006 20:30

Kitty - My Italian friend bit her two year old back when he bit someone! In fact I know a few people who've done that . Not advocating that approach, but it's interesting how different people react and what works/doesn't work.

DS used to come home from nursery covered in bites. It was really embarassing as the nursery of course wouldn't say who'd bitten him, then he told me who it was himself and it was always the same child - the son of one of my friends .

DD has bitten DS a couple of times, but just little nips. I gave her a good telling off and she laughed her head off

kittywits · 27/09/2006 20:32

Yeah some kids are biters. I have found that a telling off doesn't hold much sway over the power of the teeth

divastrop · 27/09/2006 20:46

fatfox-i have never had an asbothe parenting classes i went to were just ones run by sure start that you go to voluntarily (because they had a free creche so i got to sit aroung drinking coffee for 2 hours and talking to other adults which was very rare when ds and dd1 were little),not the type parents are made to go to cos their kids are 'at risk' or been taken into care.i just wanted to clear that up.

i would defo say locking a child in a room is abuse,i had a 'friend' who used to do it cos her son wouldnt stay in bed.this was when he was about 2.5 and shared a room with his 18 month old sister.she considered smacking to be wrong,though.

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