Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

Somewheresafe: this book is on my wishlist.

I tried Elias Khoury's Gate of the Sun but didn't find it very readable.

This ad I think.

Halfdrunkcoffee: Was it you that was interested in the position of the Arab Israelis? This article is interesting - see www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.609580

Thanks Wordsmith, yes I was. Unfortunately it's behind a paywall on the laptop at least.
Ilan Pappé has written a book on Arab Israelis which I might try and read.

Sorry Halfdrunkcoffee, I've just noticed the paywall - weirdly I was able to read it by first logging onto the general Haaretz website. Maybe try that route? Not quite sure how the Haaretz paywall works.

Ooh no - I've just remembered how I accessed it. This morning I googled "arab israelis + news" (like you, I'm also fascinated by how this group fit into the whole picture) and that was one of the first links that came up. I then just clicked on the link from google and was able to read it.

AndHarry - just wanted to get back to you about your thoughts on anti-semitism as it relates to this conflict.

Springheeled - it is indeed hard to entangle Jewish people worldwide from Israel. "Jewish" refers to the faith and to the nation, hence you can get such a thing as a Jewish atheist (and often do), something that would be a nonsense in Christianity and Islam. The land of Israel has been central to the Jewish people, in both the religious and nationalist sense, for millenia.

However, of course Jewish people in Israel and worldwide do not necessarily support the actions of the Israeli government at all times (just as we in Britain hold a spectrum of views on our own government's policies). Personally, I am a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist, and to do so peacefully, but I do not support settlements in the West Bank.

There has been a huge upsurge in violent and ugly anti-semitic attacks in the past month, often explicitly linked to the Gazan conflict, worldwide, in Europe and here in the UK. Whilst I doubt anyone on this thread would applaud these attacks, I would like to raise examples of what I consider 'everyday anti-semitism' that have indeed appeared on this thread and its predecessors. Ironically, these have been from posters who would otherwise be considered compassionate liberals. Why they get drawn into using medieval anti-semitic memes is anyone's guess, especially when they are defending down-trodden Gazans.

Example 1) - the Jews control the world's media
Example 2) - the Jews have bought and paid for the US political system
Example 3) - Israel deliberately targets and kills children

In the middle ages, Jews were widely believed to eat Christian children (and be the cause of the plague and poison wells). Have a look at a photo from a pro-Gaza protest in Seattle last month, with the nice image of a Jew eating a Palestinian baby.

I've more to add but will do so in a separate post so as not to hog the space.

This is a bit of a diversion from the main issue but the term 'Israeli Arab' confuses me a bit - as far as I understand it's used to describe Israelis who aren't Jewish and who are of Arabic descent, but aren't there also Arab Jews (Mizrahim)? Do they prefer not to be called that, or is 'Israeli Arab' just used for convenience over 'non-Jewish Israeli Arab'?

Whoever was asking about Palestinian art and culture, DAM are a hip-hop/rap group I'm getting into - is one of my favourite songs by them and has English lyrics, if anyone fancies some (dark) comic relief

While I take your point on points 1 and 2 sergeantmajor I think 3 is indisputably true and I also don't think it is antisemitic to say so, regardless of ancient myths of babies' blood or whatever- a state wouldn't bomb a school refuge that it had co ordinates for if it wasn't targeting civilians and children.

But we've had that argument here a thousand times!

Continuing my comments on anti-semitism, relating to AndHarry's post above.
Just to reiterate - yes, you can criticise Israel (government, army, policies, etc), as do many Jews and many Israelis, without being anti-semitic. These comments are about when the criticism turns into anti-semitism.

Example 4) - comparisons with the Nazi holocaust
Be careful with this one. There is no event in recorded history so far that is in any way comparable to the Nazi holocaust - in scale, in intent, in methodical thoroughness, in sheer gruesomeness. I accept that being victims of this event does not make it impossible for the Jewish people to commit atrocities themselves. But if the holocaust comparison is so very far-fetched, in fact no comparison at all, why make it? Is it not enough for the Jewish people to suffer this, but to go further by throwing the anguish back at them? Does saying that the Jewish people of today are equally guilty absolve the Nazi guilt and free critics from sympathy? Of all the nastiness bandied around, using someone's grief and loss against them is the worst.

Example 5) - allegations of genocide
Slightly different to the Nazi comparison. A look at the tragic casualty figures for this conflict, whilst distressing, do not remotely suggest genocide. Even where the Gazan casualties are women, children and old people, they have been incidental casualties caught in the exchange of missiles. No comfort for those grieving for the loss of beloved family members, but no genocide either. Had Hamas provided bomb shelters for its citizens, had Hamas not fired from civilian areas, had Hamas not built its command centre under a hospital, the casualty figures would have been undoubtably dramatically lower. Had Hamas not opened rocket fire on Israeli civilians in the first place, every one of those casualties would be alive now. But there is a further reason why allegations of genocide are particularly nasty. Because genocide is exactly what Israel's enemies publicly declare is their intention, if they ever manage to overcome Israel's defences. Iran, Hamas, Hizbollah and IS have all declared their intention to obliterate Israel and world Jewry. So while trying to prevent the genocide of its own people, Israel is accused of being what it is fighting against. Is this anti-semitic? I don't know, tbh, maybe it is just the hurly burly of war propaganda. But it is so inaccurate and twisted it feels offensive on a personal level.

Half drunk thank you for the book recommendation. I've purchased it along with Mornings in Jenin.

It's funny you should mention Gate of the Sun. I tried to read this a few years ago and failed. I thought at the time maybe something of the book had been lost in translation. It's probably the only book I've never finished.

I'm going to give it another try.

TheHoneyBadger this ad.

I suppose, though, that we can compare Gaza with a concentration camp, or with the creation and confinement of the Warsaw Ghetto. We can certainly compare treatment of Arabs to treatment of Jews, when we look at seizure of property, homes and land from 1948 to the present day, and restricted rights for people who do not have the correct race or ethnicity.

That would be very awkward for people who approve of the Ghetto Uprising, though. If the Warsaw Jews had been given missiles by some friendly power, I see no doubt they would have been used, even though others might have said "be quiet, keep your head down, don't make things worse"

PigletJohn - clearly my point about the inappropriateness of Nazi holocaust comparisons was lost on you. I started drafting a rebuttal, pointing out the huge differences between the two situations, but then realised that in doing so I was making a comparison myself. But even if we leave the great gulf in the numbers, causes and details of the situations aside, there is one telling difference: there was no option for the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto to live in peace with their neighbours, to negotiate for a better deal, or to agree a truce however temporary.

We can certainly compare treatment of Arabs to treatment of Jews, when we look at seizure of property, homes and land from 1948 to the present day, and restricted rights for people who do not have the correct race or ethnicity.

I have not mentioned the holocaust (until this sentence) so there is no need to argue that it is different.

I don't understand your last sentence, PigletJohn - you may not have mentioned the Holocaust by name, but you made the comparison with the Warsaw Ghetto and concentration camps (which aren't exclusive to the Holocaust of course, but if you weren't referring to the Nazi concentration camps then you should have been clearer). Unless you meant you haven't compared the situation in Gaza to the Holocaust as a whole, in which case I would say your comparisons are still inaccurate because a major reason why the Warsaw Ghetto and Nazi concentration camps are considered so especially terrible - and presumably the reason why they sprang to your mind as comparisons - is because of their historical context.

Sergeant - you really think palestinians have an 'option' to live in peace with their 'neighbours'?

You really don't understand the situation do you. There are no neighbours just a brutal racist occupier. And there is no choice for the palestinians other than to relinquish their human rights, identities, homes and freedom. Why do you think they all keep saying they'd rather die than live under occupation. Free me or kill me they chant.

This situation is not the Holocaust. But the parallels are astonishing.

Yes, the parallels are pretty astonishing. Reading Mumsnet it is like so many are desparate to dismantle Israel and want all Jews gone forever and do not care one whit how, will use all means, including social media to bring that aim about. Whilst blaming Israel. Just as the holocaust was and is blamed on 'the Jews'.

There are about 14 million Jews in the world. There about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and a large proportion of them want to see an end to Israel and send Jewish people in Israel packing or have them killed. Whilst pretending to be good people and cheering one another on.

Yegods

You incorrectly suggest that criticising the actions of the State of Israel is equivalent to wanting "all Jews gone forever."

I suppose that is easier for you than dealing with criticisms of the actions of the State of Israel.

really? you realise a lot of the people you are reading are themselves jewish? you realise a lot of the very vocal protest groups are jewish? are they too anti-semitic and wanting to destroy jews? this is not about religion or race - it is about humanity and legality. take out the religion as the critics are managing to (it is a cynical abuse of religion to use it to defend war crimes imo, hardly befitting if you are a jew in the sense of following the torah and belief in G_d, something about taking His name in vain) and focus on international law and basic human rights. that's what this is about.

no one is saying 'bring down israel' they are saying make israel follow international law and be held to account when they've broken it and they are saying let people in palestine have their human rights.

that ad is disgusting! i didn't realise you could take out ads that were clear propaganda now. i am stunned that we published a piece of propaganda here.

maybe i shouldn't be shocked by anything anymore but the guardian published war propaganda?????!!! really? hell in a handcart.

Al-Aswad, Israeli Arab, Arab Israeli and Palestinian citizens of Israel are terms used to describe Arab citizens of Israel (Muslim and Christian). There are also Mizrahi/Sephardi Jews (who mainly came to Israel from
Arab countries and Iran, as opposed to the Ashkenazim from Europe) who in the past at least were sometimes referred to as Arab Jews or Jewish Arabs.

Al-Jazeera opinion piece on why Gaza is not the Warsaw Ghetto.

As the article agrees, halfdrunk "there are indeed disturbing similarities."

Has someone said that they are identical?