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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

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edamsavestheday · 10/08/2014 22:03

Was it 'fair' to boycott S African cricket? It wasn't the cricket players' 'fault' after all. But the boycott expressed international disgust at the apartheid regime and it helped to bring it down. Cultural boycotts are just as important and justified - even more so, perhaps.

Springheeled · 10/08/2014 23:02

Cultural boycotts are very tricky but I think they can have an important place.

I was wondering- what films depict Palestine? Who are the Palestinian writers? What are the Palestinian sportspeople or musicians like? Does anybody know? I would like to find out more. Does the slow strangulation of Palestine prevent these flowers from blooming?

Another note on cultural boycotts re the Tricycle theatre- I noticed that this got Hadley Freeman of the Guardian frothing in fury- yet she apparently had fuck all to say about kids being torn in half.

AndHarry · 10/08/2014 23:55

In case anyone's wondering, I haven't disappeared, just gone on holiday. Thanks all for continuing to post interesting points and links.

I'm having a running debate on whether or not the majority of criticism of Israel in this conflict is anti-Semitic in nature. I'm on the 'not' side. The summarise the 'it is' side, this is a link that has been shared: Huffington Post - The Anti-Semite Inside You. On reflection, I'm not going to C+P the whole debate as it's highly identifiable but this post is the gist of my response:

"[...]I'd like to find out why you think that all reasonable detractors of Israel suddenly become motivated by a 'sinister underlying agenda' when it comes to the past few weeks. The first thing I can see is that you think that there are bigger conflicts, with more people being affected, than this one. Fine, that's true enough but they're also getting serious coverage as far as I can see and throughout the conflict Gaza has frequently been 2nd or 3rd down the headline priorities behind those larger concerns. Is you position that this operation shouldn't have been covered at all, or as a footnote, or what? What's the appropriate level of response? How big does something have to be before it can be headline news? Given that there are fewer than 2 million Palestinians in Gaza would the whole lot have to be killed or displaced, as proposed by Moshe Feiglin, before comment is fair rather than anti-Semitic? Half that number of Kosovar Albanians, with 'just' 60-ish civilian deaths, were displaced before NATO defied the supremacy of the Security Council and led airstrikes against Serb and Yugoslav forces (for the sake of avoiding another argument, I do not consider the Israeli administration to be equivalent to Milosevic etc. but use that conflict purely as a numerical point of reference). Quite aside from the reaction of the NATO members, that conflict was headline news for a year. The relative size argument also precludes specialism by a whole raft of NGOs, UN officials, journalists, politicians, commentators and plain old members of the public. Unless specialists and interested parties are supposed to turn their collective back and go for a tea break while Israel and Hamas slug it out then it's difficult to see how there can fail to be a range of opinions ranging from the unreasonable and reasonable detractors of both sides through to the reasonable and unreasonable supporters of each.

"Moving on, is your problem actually not with the media at all but with social media users? In which case, the major difference as far as I can tell is that people in my country and yours know that their government is opposed to Hamas, IS, Ebola epidemics, armies of drug-addicted and brutalised children raping their way through African refugee camps, murderous dictatorships etc. in a way that they do not see from their governments on possible abuses of human rights and international law perpetrated by the IDF and other Israeli security agencies. It's all very well to say that our governments support less than saintlike behaviour in many areas of the world but that is rarely something that comes to the attention of the public. In general, people trust that our governments support the human rights and rule of law for all people and when they're seen to be supporting Israel in denying the Palestinians the enjoyment of those same rights people want to show that they disagree. Of course, people are going to be moved by photos of bloodstained UN compounds. When the photos shift to babies in freezers and shrapnel-encrusted toddlers they/we are being exposed to propaganda but there is also a raft of propaganda coming from the Israeli side, which, as we have strict impartiality laws in this country at least, viewers are also exposed to in equal measure. That one set of propaganda is more crude, and thus highly effective at first glance, it neither here nor there. The fact remains that it is the civilian population of Gaza, not Israel, that is paying the highest price for this conflict and people do not want to see more Israeli deaths to make it 'fair' but fewer deaths of innocent people full stop/period and it is not anti-Semitic or otherwise sinister to want that and to want your government to do something about it.

"I've seen a few arguments running along the lines of 'well, Israel has Iron Dome, they should just ignore the rockets' and disagree with them as much as I'm disagreeing with you. Going back to Kosovo, in the NATO response the US bombed the Chinese embassy. Carl Bildt effectively lost his position as a UN mediator in that conflict by publicly asking what would have been the consequences if the Chinese had bombed an American embassy, the consensus being that his question was neither relevant nor helpful. The same applies here: it's not Mexican drug cartels rocketing San Antonio and asking what would happen if it was is utterly irrelevant in determining at a basic level if Israel's response is proportionate or not. That Israel should be taking action against rocket attacks on its population centres does not mean that any action they choose to take is warranted.

"For the sake of sticking to the point, let's disregard the admittedly unreported single instance of violence against an Israeli Arab property. Refocusing on the entirely verifiable reports of Israelis celebrating the death of civilian children in Gaza, I don't compare that with the rocket attacks on Israel. What I do compare it with is the disgusting anti-Semitism being shown by some - and it's a very small minority - of critics of Israeli actions. Racism, anti-Semitism, the extremists on all sides are all one to me as people unfitting of the respect shown to their several nations. But we aren't all extremists and I mind very much being classed in the same bracket as them. Scrolling back to my original point about the criticism being a reflection of the world's generally high opinion of Israel, I stand by that. Israel isn't a tinpot dictatorship with a corrupt administration, illiterate populace and a ruined economy propped up by humanitarian aid, it's a thriving democracy with some of the best innovation centres on the planet and a commitment to uphold human rights. From that viewpoint, it certainly should be able to uphold the high standards it sets for itself and administer its own affairs, internal and external, fairly and in accordance with human rights and the rule of law. That it requires international intervention to even begin to sort out what should be a pretty low-hanging diplomatic fruit is condemnation in itself."

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QnBoudi · 11/08/2014 00:20

You can't restrict the imagination! There was a good input from Palestinian perspectives at the annual Liverpool Arab Arts Festival this year: a book launch, film and play - www.arabartsfestival.com

Interesting interview on the need for literature at www.middleeastmonitor.com/resources/interviews/13058-atef-abu-saif-on-the-war-in-gaza-literature-and-orange-orchards

QnBoudi · 11/08/2014 01:39

AndHarry my response to the final paragraph is this. If you promote the right of the Jewish people to self determination at the expense of others' human rights and if you presume Hamas supporters guilty of war crimes before investigation or trial but simply assassinate them, then not only are you racist, but also breaching international law.

Other points. If you're looking to history, dont forget that Irgun was a terrorist organisation. If you want to focus on the 'actual' rather than the 'theoretical', please do so not just in terms of self defence but in terms of body count, and particularly in terms of civilians, or children, women or the elderly. And yes, maybe boycotting just one country seems inconsistent and unfair, but seemingly the only way we get to 'vote' on this issue is with our feet/funds. Just cos our government is at odds with the majority view is not a reason to give up on a cause we feel strongly about.

And for the record, I think boycotting sadly has to include sporting and cultural events so that that voice is as loud as it needs to be to get a result. A continuation of the current Palestine situation is really unthinkable.

The blog reminds me of an earlier post with a list of excuses and justifications where the antisemitism card is just the last resort.

Springheeled · 11/08/2014 07:31

Thanks qnboudi for those links! I did some research too and found that the barbican has a Palestinian film festival and I'll try to link to some poems I've found.

-andharry on antisemitism I can't see why the goalposts of it have to seemingly move until the Israeli sympathiser has won. What I mean is, the way that the line between Judaism and Israel is blurred so that bodies who say they speak for Jews in England will get outraged by criticism of Israel's actions yet in the last month I have met and spoken to more Jewish people than ever before and they oppose the actions of Israel? I'm not awake enough to write what I mean coherently so I'll try later.

sergeantmajor · 11/08/2014 08:05

AndHarry - thank you for your thoughtful post. I have lots to say about it, but little time just now. But one quick question, what are the "strict impartiality laws" that you mention with regard to propaganda on social media, or perhaps you even mean all mainstream media?

This question is not rhetorical or sarcastic, but genuine. My impression is that there is a code of practice, nothing more, and that there is scant policing of it. In this day and age, the lines between rumours, propaganda, wiki-leaks, opinion and unsubstantiated fact are blurring considerably.

halfdrunkcoffee · 11/08/2014 08:37

Springheeled: off the top of my head Karl Sabbagh is a Palestinian (Palestinian-American?) writer. Samir El?youssef another Palestinian author. Sayed Kashua a Palestinian-Israeli writer. Lemon Tree is a good film. Seven Broken Cameras another film (I haven't seen that one yet).

halfdrunkcoffee · 11/08/2014 08:44

^^Karl Sabbagh is Palestinian-British, sorry.

halfdrunkcoffee · 11/08/2014 08:50

Aaargh, Five Broken Cameras.

Springheeled · 11/08/2014 09:22

I like the sound of the short stories by El Youssef and Keret.

Stumbled across a hideous magazine online with an article saying that 'almond eyed children' were part of the 'Pallywood production'. It was some kind of rampant islamophobic rag- who are these people??? Like those on the other thread. All this racism is shocking.

somewheresafe · 11/08/2014 09:46

Can anyone recommend any books I can buy about palestinian life or written by palestinian authors? I've searched through kindle books but can't seem to find anything.

I know a fair bit about israel and it's formation but after the last month I want to read about palestine.

OneEggIsAnOeuf · 11/08/2014 10:47

On the back of AndHarry's post, there's a very good article by Owen Jones on the same subject:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/11/anti-jewish-hatred-rising-antisemitism-meaning

Also a good piece here by Paul Mason on the media and propaganda:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/10/truth-propaganda-foes-gaza-war-independent-journalism?CMP=twt_gu

AndHarry · 11/08/2014 11:40

sergeantmajor Ofcom publishes the impartiality rules (applicable only to British TV broadcasters I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong) and their basis in legislation on their website here. The BBC has its own rules here.

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AndHarry · 11/08/2014 12:02

OneEgg thanks for those two links. Really very interesting.

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TheHoneyBadger · 11/08/2014 12:10

lots of heartening stuff to read this morning. i'm afraid i'm skimming over the apologists and racists totally now. what's the point? it's always the same and at heart anything that is trying to justify the murder of innocents comes from such a twisted place that nothing 'straight' can come out of it.

i'm glad to hear the demo was huge, unsurprised to hear it hasn't been reported on much and still firmly happy with my decision to cancel my tv licence. i wish everyone would do it - impartiality is at the heart of their charter and they have consistently failed to live up to it in the last few years as they have become more and more transparently political puppets.

TheHoneyBadger · 11/08/2014 12:11

i mean the BBC btw - sorry.

Springheeled · 11/08/2014 12:19

Great response from my MP (fib dem) and he included a copy of a good letter he has sent to Philip Hammond, asking key qus such as 'at what level would you say Israel's actions are disproportionate'
In fairness, he's consistently a pretty good MP (aside from being in the condem coalition)

I liked Owen Jones' article as it expresses more articulately than I can the idea that conflation of Israel and Judaism cuts both ways .

Has anyone else seen the new Michael Rosen poem doing the rounds?

Springheeled · 11/08/2014 12:20

Ps I know this is not the thread, time or place for it but my crush on Paul Mason is quite disproportionate these days!

Springheeled · 11/08/2014 12:20

Pps Jeremy hardy is fun on twitter- he manages to be spot on and quite funny too

TheHoneyBadger · 11/08/2014 12:51

i feel shamefully inactive compared to some on this thread. i could trot out illness, money, single parent, lots going on type justifications but it would be self indulgent and just excuses anyway. still i'm grateful to see others doing so much.

wordsmithsforever · 11/08/2014 13:03

Mornings in Jenin, by Susan Abulhawa, is another great read.

Springheeled · 11/08/2014 14:07

Thanks for the recommendations to chase up. A friend has just posted something by Khaled Juma- it's about the children of Gaza- I am going to learn how to make links here!

Springheeled · 11/08/2014 14:52

Is the Guardian going down the pan or what? Can't believe they are going to print the ad that even the Times wouldn't print.

TheHoneyBadger · 11/08/2014 16:02

what ad? sorry, maybe i'm not keeping up.

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