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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
halfdrunkcoffee · 10/08/2014 09:37

PJ: "Segeantmajor pretends that to criticise the actions of the State of Israel is to condemn a religion."

Where did she say that?

dingalong · 10/08/2014 09:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

somewheresafe · 10/08/2014 10:12

How can anyone cry about 'acts of hate and exclusion' when a theatre group is removed from the Edinburgh festival, but then support a regime that practices acts of extreme hate and exclusion against the palestinians for decades? I struggle to understand that hypocrisy.

I'm glad that more and more academic and cultural boycotts are appearing. These, alongside sports boycotts are a powerful shaming tool. Ultimately alongside boycotts we need sanctions and divestment but I doubt this will happen. And I doubt that Israel will feel any shame. Ever.

sergeantmajor · 10/08/2014 10:34

No PigletJohn I don't. I was quoting goldvelvet Where do I mention anything about anti-semitism or the Jewish religion?

Unlike in a verbal debate, it is quite easy to rewind and read what I actually posted, rather than what you claim I posted.

halfdrunkcoffee · 10/08/2014 10:37

Somewheresafe - is it fair to blame the theatre group for their government's actions? Are actors from other countries with dubious human rights records also prevented from appearing at the Edinburgh Festival? (I am far more outraged by what Israel is doing in Gaza than I am about the Edinburgh Festival by the way, but that doesn't mean that the latter is not worth discussing).

I am broadly in favour of economic boycotts (for example not buying Israeli produce) and arms embargoes, but I am less convinced of the merits of cultural and academic boycotts. As Ian McEwan has said, people need to keep talking. Some Israeli films (for example Lemon Tree) have been critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, as have a number of authors, such as David Grossman. And would you boycott this book?

sergeantmajor · 10/08/2014 10:42

dingalong ^"Sergeant major has also been silent on the rights of Palestinians kicked out of Israel to have the right to return

How can you be pro-palestine if you don't think they deserve this (so Israel can keep a majority)"^

But dingalong, I explained my views on the right to return, in answer to your own question, in some detail earlier in the thread. You may have disagreed, but I have not been silent.

And I don't claim to be pro-Palestine. I am not anti-Palestine either. I am pro a two-state solution.

I pointed out that it is possible to be pro-Palestine and anti-Hamas. As indeed is much of the Arab world.

dingalong · 10/08/2014 11:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dingalong · 10/08/2014 11:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

somewheresafe · 10/08/2014 11:37

Half drunk - it's not fair to blame or punish the performers for their country's actions. But these performers represent the regime from which they originate so boycotting them represents a boycott of the institution not individuals.

Cultural boycotts were used to dismantle the south African apartheid and are a useful to reject representations of the regime. It opens up debate and surely in the current climate it would be inappropriate to sit amd applaud work from a country which has breached international law so brutally. Israel is so entrenched in its own ideology of oppression that pressure from outside can show them that people disapprove and won't disregard the context of oppression.

This is just my opinion as I know I would be unable to sit and watch an israeli dance show knowing that the regime it originates from is currently bombing innocent civilians and refusing to lift the siege. It's not a protest against the individual performers but the state and with Israel being so absolutely protected and powerful boycotts can at least send the message that we've no need for their culture until they develop some humanity alongside it.

QnBoudi · 10/08/2014 11:38

Well done all at the demos.

Was inspired to read the Mandela piece, tho having also read through all the posts on it, think people should be aware that it wasn't actually written by him. Can't fault the arguments this notwithstanding.

OneEggIsAnOeuf · 10/08/2014 12:00

Here's a link to an article about Ban Ki Moon working with Israel (under US pressure) to undermine the UN's report into human rights violations in Gaza 2008-09, that somewheresafe referred to earlier.

www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Wikileaks-Ban-Ki-Moon-Worked-with-Israel-to-Undermine-UN-Report-20140809-0020.html

The shocking thing is that i'm not even shocked any more.

sergeantmajor · 10/08/2014 12:27

dingalong - here are my personal views in answer to your points "does israeli's desire to be a majority trump the civil rights of palestine to return to their homeland...does this mean your in favour of Israeli civil rights but not Palestinian ones?"

All rights should be universal. Here is a situation where the rights of two groups are mutually exclusive. If you give Palestinians the right to return, you de facto eliminate the Jewish state. It's not a "desire to be a majority". It's a desire to exist. So some sort of compromise needs to be worked out. Otherwise we have everlasting war. Personally I think the two-state solution along the lines of pre-1967 borders, with an international capital in Jerusalem, seems the least bad option.

If you can propose a way to give the Palestinians the right to return and for the Jewish state to still exist, I'd like to hear it. Btw, the Palestinians are unique in being the only group whose refugee status has passed to their children. So the c.1m displaced in 1948 are now numbering c.5m.

You also questioned what I meant by the apparent underdog. Much of this thread sees the Palestinians as the underdog in this debate, due to the much larger number of casualties during Operation Protective Edge. Not everyone sees it that way and this is why:

Israel is surrounded by hostile countries who are implacably opposed to its existence. Hamas itself has not taken as many Israeli lives in the past month, but that has been largely due to the Iron Dome and comprehensive provision of bomb shelters. Hizbollah in the north has pledged Israel's complete destruction. IS militants in the west have pledged the same. Oil-rich Iran and Qatar are providing ample funds for all militaries dedicated to Israel's elimination. Israel's last military campaign in the north did not go well, proving itself far from invincible.

(PS my MN nickname is a little misleading, I have never served in any army, it refers solely to my parenting style on a bad day)

saadia · 10/08/2014 12:37

In response to the oft-repeated assertion that Israel is an oasis of democracy and civilisation amongst a sea of savages, I just wonder how they expected Arabs to respond when they set up a state in that particular location. They must have foreseen that there would be 'opposition' and that there might be resentment and anger among Arabs that their co-religionists had been made homeless. They cannot now complain about this. It should not come as a surprise.

wordsmithsforever · 10/08/2014 12:39

Thanks QnBoudi - noted.

somewheresafe · 10/08/2014 12:53

Sergeant I think you've made an interesting point. There has to be a way to facilitate the palestinians right to return without diminishing israels right to exist.

The problem is Israel will not end the siege or occupation, it won't allow free movement of people or goods, it treats palestinians with brutality, it won't allow fishermen to fish, it disregards their human rights. This in turn leads to the creation of groups like hamas who many palestinians despise too. If Israel loosened it's stranglehold grip on the neck of palestine this might be seen as a gesture towards peace.

Israel must let palestinians live. Let them fish, play, work, trade, exist. Only then will israel feel it too can live work play without threat.

QnBoudi · 10/08/2014 13:24

Well done all at the demos.

Was inspired to read the Mandela piece, tho having also read through all the posts on it, think people should be aware that it wasn't actually written by him. Can't fault the arguments this notwithstanding.

tagragra · 10/08/2014 13:37

what a fantastic lie,hamas is terrosrist organisation so hundreds of children have to die.the world has to wake up to this obvious unjustice.
all Palestinians want is normal everyday state where they can live ,fly out fly in,go to work etc....all denied to them then wonder why they fire rockets to Israel
Israel is firing missiles ,forbidden weapons ,fighter jets etc...it is as clear as water.let s not be fooled anymore by the media and cameron

PigletJohn · 10/08/2014 15:02

seageantmasjor

when you said "The nation of Israel has been thoroughly condemned and vilified on this thread for the actions of their government and armed forces"

did you mean "the State of Israel has been thoroughly condemned for the actions of the State of Israel" or did you mean to suggest something else?

dingalong · 10/08/2014 18:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

dingalong · 10/08/2014 18:19

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Yruapita · 10/08/2014 18:32

I thought that the jewish school head boy's response to his critics was absolutely fabulous. Does anybody know whether his school has issued a statement? I personally hope that they commend him. He did not bring the school into disrepute, he fully deserves to be the head boy.

sergeantmajor · 10/08/2014 19:03

PigletJohn - if you read the thread carefully, you will see that I was quoting one poster's comment that it was wrong to vilify a nation and religion on account of their government (the poster was referring to the Gazans and Hamas), and I pointed out that in this thread a nation has been repeatedly vilified on account of their government (the Israeli people and their current government). I do not agree that it is right to do so in either instance. I am extremely mindful that the Palestinian voice is not necessarily represented by Hamas and would not want to tar that nation with the same brush. I wonder if you agree with British foreign policy at all times?

edamsavestheday · 10/08/2014 19:09

Damn, hadn't realised that letter apparently from Mandela was a spoof. However, this address was real:

www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mandela/1997/sp971204b.html#sthash.iL5ikYCF.dpuf

Pretoria, 4 December 1997
Mr. Chairman;
Mr. Suleyman al-Najab,
Special Emissary of President Yasser Arafat;
Members of the diplomatic corps;
Distinguished Guests,
We have assembled once again as South Africans, our Palestinian guests and as humanists to express our solidarity with the people of Palestine.
I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the organisers of the event, particularly the United Nations Information Centre and the UNISA Centre for Arabic and Islamic Studies for this magnificent act of compassion, to keep the flames of solidarity, justice and freedom burning.
The temptation in our situation is to speak in muffled tones about an issue such as the right of the people of Palestine to a state of their own. We can easily be enticed to read reconciliation and fairness as meaning parity between justice and injustice. Having achieved our own freedom, we can fall into the trap of washing our hands of difficulties that others faces.
Yet we would be less than human if we did so.
It behoves all South Africans, themselves erstwhile beneficiaries of generous international support, to stand up and be counted among those contributing actively to the cause of freedom and justice.
Even during the days of negotiations, our own experience taught us that the pursuit of human fraternity and equality - irrespective of race or religion - should stand at the centre of our peaceful endeavours. The choice is not between freedom and justice, on the one hand, and their opposite, on the other. Peace and prosperity; tranquility and security are only possible if these are enjoyed by all without discrimination.
It is in this spirit that I have come to join you today to add our own voice to the universal call for Palestinian self-determination and statehood.
We would be beneath our own reason for existence as government and as a nation, if the resolution of the problems of the Middle East did not feature prominently on our agenda.
When in 1977, the United Nations passed the resolution inaugurating the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people, it was asserting the recognition that injustice and gross human rights violations were being perpetrated in Palestine. In the same period, the UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system.
But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians; without the resolution of conflicts in East Timor, the Sudan and other parts of the world.
We are proud as a government, and as the overwhelming majority of South Africans to be part of an international consensus taking root that the time has come to resolve the problems of Palestine.
Indeed, all of us marvelled at the progress made a few years ago, with the adoption of the Oslo Agreements. Leaders of vision, who saw problems not merely from the point of view of their own narrow constituency, had at least found a workable approach towards friendship and peaceful co-existence in the Middle East.
I wish to take this opportunity to pay tribute to these Palestinian and Israeli leaders. In particular, we pay homage to the memory of Yitshak Rabin who paid the supreme sacrifice in pursuit of peace.
We are proud as humanists, that the international consensus on the need for the implementation of the Oslo Agreements is finding expression in the efforts of the multitude of Israeli and Palestinian citizens of goodwill who are marching together, campaigning together, for an end to prevarication. These soldiers of peace are indeed sending a message to us all, that the day is not far off, when Palestinian and Jewish children will enjoy the gay abandon of children of God in a peaceful and prosperous region.
These soldiers of peace recognise that the world we live in is rising above the trappings of religious and racial hatred and conflict. They recognise that the spurning of agreements reached in good faith and the forceful occupation of land can only fan the flames of conflict. They know from their own experience that, it is in a situation such as this, that extremists on all sides thrive, fed by the blood lust of centuries gone by.
These Palestinian and Israeli campaigners for peace know that security for any nation is not abstract; neither is it exclusive. It depends on the security of others; it depends on mutual respect and trust. Indeed, these soldiers of peace know that their destiny is bound together, and that none can be at peace while others wallow in poverty and insecurity.
Thus, in extending our hands across the miles to the people of Palestine, we do so in the full knowledge that we are part of a humanity that is at one, that the time has come for progress in the implementation of agreements. The majority of the world community; the majority of the people of the Middle East; the majority of Israelis and Palestinians are suing for peace.
But we know, Mr. Chairman, that all of us need to do much much more to ensure that this noble ideal is realised.
As early as February 1995, our government formalised its relations with the State of Palestine when we established full diplomatic relations. We are proud of the modest technical assistance that our government is offering Palestine in such areas as Disaster Management, women's empowerment and assistance to handicapped children. But the various discussions with our counterparts in Palestine are an indication that we can do more.
We need to do more as government, as the ANC and other parties, as South Africans of all religious and political persuasions to spur on the peace process. All of us should be as vocal in condemning violence and the violation of human rights in this part of the world as we do with regard to other areas. We need to send a strong message to all concerned that an attempt by anyone to isolate partners in negotiations from their own mass base; and attempt to co-opt tes is bound to hurt the peace process as a whole.
We must make our voices heard calling for stronger action by world bodies as well as those states that have the power, to act with the same enthusiasm in dealing with this deadlock as they do on other problems in the Middle East.
Yes, all of us need to do more in supporting the struggle of the people of Palestine for self-determination; in supporting the quest for peace, security and friendship in this region.
But at least we can draw comfort from the fact that, our meeting today is yet another small expression of our empathy.
We hope that, by this humble act, we are strengthening the voice of peace and friendship in Israel and Palestine; so that, as we enter the new millennium, we shall all have taken a giant stride towards a world in which our humanity will be the hallmark of our relations across colour, religious and other divides.
I thank you.
Issued by: Office of the President

edamsavestheday · 10/08/2014 19:15

And here's an ANC source just to avoid any doubt:

www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=3384

wordsmithsforever · 10/08/2014 20:24

Thanks edamsavestheday - will take a look in detail as soon as I get a few secs.

Yruapita: Wasn't it a great response from that school boy? You can tell he loves Israel but loathes these attacks on the Palestinian people. Anyway, I'm hoping the school will respond to my letter and I'll report back here if I hear anything.