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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
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8
halfdrunkcoffee · 09/08/2014 20:17

Wordsmith that's awful about the South African boy.
Glad to hear the march was well attended today.

LondonGirl33 · 09/08/2014 20:22

The thread I posted is indeed a copy from an article. There are 2 sides to this debate and it seems only one is being fully represented here. Hamas are terrorists. The same beliefs that caused thousands of innocent deaths in the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings. Think about that for a minute is all I'm saying :)

dingalong · 09/08/2014 20:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

halfdrunkcoffee · 09/08/2014 20:35

TheHoneyBadger: to go back to your comment: "on the refugees my point was that the immigration policies of another country don't excuse in any way the expulsion and displacement of a people by the country we're actually talking about. they wouldn't need to be dealing with the immigration policies of foreign countries if they hadn't been driven out or could now return. of course it's what a bout ism."

Where did I say that Lebanon's treatment of the Palestinians excuses their expulsion by Israel in 1948? It is possible to get angry about more than one thing at the same time: 1. Historic atrocities; and 2. Dire present-day living conditions. Surely you cannot think this is justified? Amnesty International doesn't.

I would argue that in this case it's not whataboutery, as it might be if someone tried to deflect blame for Israeli attacks on civilians by saying that Syria has done worse. The title of this thread is "Israeli-Palestinian conflict." The right of return for refugees is one of the demands made by the BDS movement, although I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon. There is no way this conflict is going to be resolved without addressing the issue of the five million or so Palestinian refugees and their descendants in other Arab countries, whether this is through some form of right of return, financial compensation, the granting of citizenship in the countries where they now live, efforts to drastically improve their living conditions, or a mixture.

dingalong · 09/08/2014 20:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

goldvelvet · 09/08/2014 20:45

Londongirl don't even get me started on 9/11 I believe that there was foul play there but that's another thread for another time.

And i'll repeat again I am not muslim or from Iraq before that get's thrown around.

somewheresafe · 09/08/2014 21:00

There were also demonstrations in tel aviv today. Well done to the Israelis who attended and marched for peace.

goldvelvet · 09/08/2014 21:01

I think what people like London Girl don't get is if Israel was Palestine and everything switched. The Israeli's were being subjected to this in Israel (but in this analogy it's the size of Gaza) by the palestinians who had the power that Israel have now then we would all hold the exact same stance. We would side with the lesser power who is being subjected to disproportionate actions resulting in high civilian deaths and injuries, with high numbers of them being babies, children & women. High levels of devastation to homes, schools, places of worship, hospitals, safe havens etc. et.

IT'S NOT ''Israel hating'' because it's Israel and apparently everyone hates the Jews anyway Hmm If they were in the position of the palestinians everyone would be just as horrified.

It's exercising basic components of humanity.

edamsavestheday · 09/08/2014 21:01

Wordsmith, thanks for your post, I've written to the headmaster as well. And you/he have inspired me to go and look at Nelson Mandela's words on Palestine:

www.keghart.com/Mandela-Palestine

Dear Thomas, [Thomas Friedman]

I know that you and I long for peace in the Middle East, but before you continue to talk about necessary conditions from an Israeli perspective, you need to know what’s on my mind. Where to begin? How about 1964.Let me quote my own words during my trial. They are true today as they were then: “I have fought against white domination and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.”

Today the world, black and white, recognize that Apartheid has no future. In South Africa it has been ended by our own decisive mass action in order to build peace and security. That mass campaign of defiance and other actions could only culminate in the establishment of Democracy.

Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an Apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column “Bush’s First Memo” in the New York Times on March 27, 2001.

You seem to be surprised to hear that there are still problems of 1948 to be solved, the most important component of which is the right to return of Palestinian refugees. The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established “normally” and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a “state” but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.

In the last few years, and especially during the reign of the Labour Party, Israel showed that it was not even willing to return what it occupied in 1967; that Settlements remain, Jerusalem would be under exclusive Israeli sovereignty, and Palestinians would not have an independent state, but would be under Israeli economic domination with Israeli control of borders, land, air, water and sea.

Israel was not thinking of a “state” but of “separation”. The value of separation is measured in terms of the ability of Israel to keep the Jewish state Jewish, and not to have a Palestinian minority that could have the opportunity to become a majority at some time in the future. If this takes place, it would force Israel to either become a secular democratic or bi-national state, or to turn into a state of Apartheid not only de facto, but also de jure.

Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find a vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of the nature of “I hate Arabs” and “I wish Arabs would be dead”.

If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 Occupied Territories you will find there are already two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two different approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognized as private property because it can be confiscated.

As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called “Palestinian autonomous areas” are Bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli Apartheid system.

The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel’s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a “Jewish” state.

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and Apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its Apartheid policies.

Thomas, I’m not abandoning Mideast diplomacy. But I’m not going to indulge you the way your supporters do. If you want peace and democracy, I will support you. If you want formal Apartheid, we will not support you. If you want to support racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing, we will oppose you.

When you figure out what you’re about, give me a call.

goldvelvet · 09/08/2014 21:19

Nelson Mandela was a great man and spoke with such understanding and compassion for all man. His presence on this earth is sorely missed.

wordsmithsforever · 09/08/2014 21:34

edamsavestheday and somewheresafe: thanks for writing to Mr Budd :)

Wow edam, that letter is so interesting but also kind of reassuring.Gaza and the West Bank have been on my mind such a lot in the last few weeks and that word "Bantustan" has constantly crept into my mind but I've thought to myself - am I being unfair or are these actually Bantustans? So it's comforting that Madiba has backed me up on this one!

For those that don't know, the Bantustans were the apartheid government's solution to its particular "demographic problem" of too many black South Africans. The idea was to give black South Africans small crappy bits of land around SA where they could govern themselves whilst we whites would hold onto - you know - the gold and other mines, the wine farms, the rich agricultural land - the good stuff in other words. Unsurprisingly it didn't really fly with black South Africans. Grin

edamsavestheday · 09/08/2014 21:47

Let's just hope our letters help... or the headmaster is already on the side of the angels.

OneStepCloser · 09/08/2014 21:56

Hi, back late but what a great day in London, sorry cat don't think I saw you! Fantastic atmosphere, our DS really enjoyed it, very peaceful and sooooo many people. Felt great to be amongst so many people who felt the same.

Slightly shattered now.

somewheresafe · 09/08/2014 21:59

Wonderful edam. Thanks for posting.

I think it was piglet who tried the very clever reversal statements where he changed the word palestine for Israel to depict how reactions change if Israel if the one being subjugated. I don't think apologists quite got the point.

Ultimately, irrespective of rave religion of political leaning the issue here is one of humanity. I'm glad that people are equally outraged at isis and their massacre too. My empathy does not begin or end in Gaza.

edamsavestheday · 09/08/2014 22:04

Hey Onestep, so glad you went - and the thousands of others. Wish my health was less dodgy at the moment so I could have added my presence but I'm really grateful to those of you who did go.

Yruapita · 09/08/2014 22:42

halfdrunk i read through your MP's response. It's all very well being there with humanitarian aid but why let it get so far to begin with when it can be stopped, should our government and others apply more pressure.

Thanks for your post edam, what a brilliant letter.

Just seen the London protest on the news - it was massive!!!!!!! People seemed so passionate. People will not forget the death of children at the hands of Israel and the boycott will be widespread, let's just hope it makes an impact.

My local protest was much smaller but a great atmosphere here too. The chant went like this:

Israel
Shame, shame
So much bloodshed
In your name

I will also be writing to the headmaster wordsmith. I haven't looked at your link yet but let me get this right, are people picking on a school boy for his pro-humanity views?

goldvelvet · 09/08/2014 22:43

somewheresafe.
I think the best way to spell it out to them is some things in society are unacceptable full stop. Killing innocent people is one of them amongst many more.

If we didn't have this underlying conscience running through all of us humans that inhabit this earth, we would be barbaric savages. There would be chaos. There are people that still cannot comply to the basic rules of humanity. For them there are jails and other sanctions in place.

I think the sheer amount of people from all walks of life around the world collectively gathering to support this one cause proves who's morals are in the right and who are in the wrong.

You have to be depraved to ever justify killing babies and children.

To those who are in the ''wrong'' I don't blame them instead I feel they are misinformed. And the blame lies with those who are doing the misinforming.

If someone was repeatedly drumming into you that blue was in fact red eventually you'd start to believe it. Then it wouldn't be long before you'd start trying to convince others....why can't they see it too?

The answer is simple..... Blue isn't red. It never will be.

But the shining light in all of this are the protests in Tel Aviv, a couple of weeks ago and again today. That people are brave enough to speak out. I actually sighed a sigh of relief when I saw them. I've been in bits this last week, completely baffled by the hate a bile that some people posses. Traumatised by the harrowing stories and brought to tears every single day. I completely lost faith in humanity at some points. How can this be allowed to happen in this day in age? Flies through my mind daily.

somewheresafe · 09/08/2014 22:49

Yes the world does seem very bleak at the moment. I'm sick of lunatic oppressing and killing other people. It's happening everywhere.

Wikileaks is today reporting that ban ki moon worked with Israel to undermine the reports on gaza. I am so fucking angry about this. How fucking dare he? Fucking idiot. He better fucking resign soon he's an absolute disgrace and as much use as a chocolate teapot.

edamsavestheday · 09/08/2014 23:04

I'm glad there are protests in Tel Aviv, it sounds like it's a scary time to be a protester - Gideon Levy has got death threats from senior politicians, FFS.

It is very bleak but there are good stories too - like the leader of the Mothers of the Disappeared in Argentina who has traced her grandson (born in prison, his parents murdered by the junta, the baby stolen as so many were).

Roonerspism · 10/08/2014 05:53

gold my sentiments match yours. The world has always been brutal but the last few months, ironically 100 years after the First World War started, have felt utterly, shockingly horrendous.

Some days I actually feel depressed about the state of the planet and the barbaric, selfish humans on it.

We are visiting the Edinburgh festival right now (highly recommend). We walked around crowded sunny streets and there was so much laughter and joy in the air. A homosexual couple holding hands. A Muslim couple smiling for photos with a busker. Japanese tourists dancing. The atmosphere was utterly joyful and it was truly multicultural. Everyone welcome - race, religion, gender, sexual orientation - everyone was - well - human.

A brief snapshot but it raised my spirits....

sergeantmajor · 10/08/2014 07:53

Roonerspism - "Everyone welcome - race, religion, gender, sexual orientation" ... well not quite everyone. Student dancers from an Israeli university have been forced out, as has a theatre company from Jerusalem.

I don't think these acts of hate and exclusion within the arts world are anything to celebrate and have no part in the liberal Britain that I love.

wordsmithsforever · 10/08/2014 07:58

Yruapita: "I haven't looked at your link yet but let me get this right, are people picking on a school boy for his pro-humanity views?"

Yes, Yruapita, that seems to be it exactly - he expressed empathy for the Palestinian people by wearing the colours of the Palestinian flag in a photo on facebook and now a petition is circulating to have him removed from all leadership roles at his school.

sergeantmajor · 10/08/2014 08:35

goldvelvet - "We don't condemn a nation and a religion for the actions of their government and the corrupt armed forces that represents them"

If only.

The nation of Israel has been thoroughly condemned and vilified on this thread for the actions of their government and armed forces. But although I don't agree with the anti-Israel voices here, I do know that you're entitled to express them, within the Talk guidelines.

I scrolled back to read through Londongirl's post, looking for the racism and Islamophobia mentioned. There was plenty of criticism of Islamic fundamentalism and jihadists. But not any of Islam itself and Muslims in general. And no mention of race. Her suggestion of a global threat from jihad is speculative, but seeing as that is fundamentalist jihad's publicly declared intention, then it's not unreasonable to discuss it.

It is possible to be pro-Palestinian, anti-Operation-Protective-Edge, even anti-Israel's-right-to-exist, and still understand and accept that Hamas is part of an aggressive jihadist movement. (After all, they keep telling us they are!) And no, that wouldn't mean you have a jot less sympathy for the Palestinian civilian victims.

PigletJohn · 10/08/2014 08:42

Segeantmajor pretends that to criticise the actions of the State of Israel is to condemn a religion.

This is a old, but very common debating trick, which is easily recognised, to pretend that to be opposed to the actions of the State of Israel is to be anti-semitic. The trick is dishonest but often tried.

Hakluyt · 10/08/2014 08:46

It is perfectly possible to be anti Zionist without being anti Semitic. Many Jews are.

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