Palestine/Israel

[Lady1d]

Can someone please give me the background to everything that is going on. Sorry to sound like a complete idiot but I'm not at all up to speed on current affairs and need an idiots guide

I can't see a response to my points in that.

If you have a point, do your own homework.

I reiterate an earlier point, to Hamas any human life means nothing to them, even there own, where in record time they investigated, sent to trial(?), and executed 18 Gaza citizens for ‘collaborating’ to inform on three Hamas leaders to Israel – what were they doing to communicate, holding tin cans and a very long piece of string to Tel Aviv????

Seems like typical blanket Hamas ‘overkill’ of anyone who gets in their way for the destruction of Israel – so typical battlefield summary executions, at a Hamas time waging an intense war.

“Gaza: Hamas says 18 suspected informants executed”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28896346
“Hamas sources in Gaza say 18 people suspected of collaborating with Israel have been executed.”

“The killings came after an Israeli air strike killed three senior Hamas leaders on Thursday. Two more Palestinians died in overnight strikes.”

“Israel says there has been fire from Gaza - including a strike on Friday that killed a four-year-old boy.”

PigletJohn ….. re the CURRENT conflict and CURRENT loss of Palestinian citizen’s lives, I repeat this highly relevant question for the third time, anyone else can clearly feel free to answer.

Tell me, when Israel decided to withdraw all their thousands of settlers from Gaza (and some from the West Bank) in 2003 as an act of faith, did the Palestinian people see Israel’s actions, as a SIGN OF WEAKNESS, rather than the start of a peace process to build on?

As, PigletJohn, it beats the hell out of me WHY the Palestinian people elected a known Islamic Jihadist group to represent them in future negotiations, when Hamas has no interest in negotiating, OTHER than to gain concessions from Israel that strategically INCREASES their war effort on Israel – and the government of Israel, their citizens, and every western government that has designated Hamas a terrorist organisatio, e.g. the E.U, know this.

Can you tell me the Palestinian voters thinking behind this please?

Let me see if I understand the posture you are taking for today.

Have you abandoned your earlier assertion that "War is war, there is no rule book?"

Today, are you saying that bombs or rockets used by the IRA, or Hamas, or the Stern Gang are criminal acts, or are you saying they are acts of war?

Errrr we covered those points not today, but on the 22 August.

The Ira were not an elected government or firing thousands of rockets for years from Ireland to the UK, in which case it probably would have been seen asa n act of war., time; 00.08.31.

The 'war is war' question is your knit picking (the type that produces hundred of posts elsewhere) as mentioned, time 13.12.24, before/since better qualified, as Hamas is at war with Israel (see definition), and there are no such limits as 'terrorist rules' - where terrorist do not get to attack other country's citizens and either expect to get NO response back, or trade rocket for rocket, in missile ping-pong.

AS for today, I've asked the same question twice, would you like the question again?

I'm with pigletjohn here.

The fact is that many, many civilian lives are being lost because of Israel's completely disproportionate response here - it is outrageous that anyone should try to defend this. Civilian men, women children die, tower blocks, hospitals, schools, ambulances houses all bombed - Amnesty Intl, UN, journalists, are witnesses of war crimes...

On a different thread, 2 weeks ago (I've been away) someone asked what would I do if someone across the street from me, sat with a small child on their lap and shot rifle fire through my house windows. How would I react?That was their scenario. They actually thought that 'scenario' would make me start to believe that Israeli slaughter of Gazan children was justified.

They were wrong. I see things differently from them.

Hello Sabrinnnna … we are all with PigletJohn here about the civilian Palestinian deaths here, which I assume is why there is around several thousand Mumsnet posts saying pretty much the same, but on here (hopefully) we can go deeper than that – as I’m thinking that as the Palestinians have a democracy, THEY can stop the military exchanges from their government, and limit THEIR OWN casualties.

So re the ‘disproportional response’, there seems to be a complete unwillingness (for whatever reason) to ‘put the sandal on the other foot’ – as when someone has said they want to wipe your country off the earth, spend every minute of every day preparing to inflict civilian casualties on Israel – so if an Israeli, how long is PROPORTIONATE to try dismantle the other sides MEANS to wage war on you?

I assume that you have read most of this thread and understand that the Gaza Strip is smaller than the Isle of Wight, they import/make within missiles/rockets, they brag numbered several thousand before this current military exchange happened, and spend millions per tunnel digging to reach Israeli citizens on the other side – numbering at least 32, recently found, dug during a few years of peace.

As the Palestinians over decades are well aware of the response they will get from israel, why do they continue to escalate the war on Israel spending $$$hundreds of millions per year, that COULD make the civilian lives more comfortable/prosperous?

This is key to the point I’ve raised that no one seems to be able to answer, WHY did Palestinians eligible to vote, numbering LESS than the children ineligible to vote, give Hamas - known for its unswerving Jihad against Israel - a decisive victory, JUST WHEN they had been given a step toward autonomy, by Israel forcibly removing several thousand of its own citizens from Gaza?

Sunni Hamas are Islamic Jihadist looking to kill every Israeli to take back land form an Islamic State.

Sunni ISIS are Islamic Jihadists is looking to kill anyone to form a Sunni Caliphate (Islamic State).

To an Israeli, at fear every day of a rocket or terrorist having travelled by ‘tube’ from the Gaza and now running towards them, what is the difference? What is the basis for the Israeli government to TELL the Israeli people, the time is now right to negotiate with Palestinians, as we can trust their Hamas government???

Hence I ask the question; WHY DID THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ELECT HAMAS???

'WHY DID THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ELECT HAMAS???'

Are you really that ignorant or just pretending?
Possibly because they feel hopeless as they have tried electing Fatah and things have not improved for them.

I'm not interested in why Hamas were elected - except to say that there is interesting evidence that Hamas were created by the Israeli govt to damage Arafat.

Anyone who says something like "oh we're all with Pigletjohn about the civilian deaths - but..." is just looking to excuse the inexcusable imo.

Did you see the Israeli citizens who are marching for peace, and asking for dialogue (not war crimes) to solve the crisis?

I'm with them too.

Claig ...... have YOU answered my question, that the people of Palestine WANTS a war - as FYI there was a western 'roadmap' to peace in the early 2000's, Israel was getting on better with Fatah enough to withdraw several thousand settlers in 2003 WITHOUT any concessions from the Palestinians I can see - and THEN Palestinians elected Hamas.

Sabrinna .... yeh, yeh, blame the Israelis for creating Hamas, the other rocket scientist on here had a similar theory, that as Israel knew about Hamas gaining power and didn't wipe out youths that may or may not have gone on to form Hamas (or any of the other similar organisations in Gaza) then it's the Israeli's fault.

Well guess what, they are trying to wipe out those individuals now that are PROVEN to be Islamic Jihadists killing Israeli citizens.

The fact is you cannot fight a war on a bit of land 25x10 miles with 1.7 million citizens within.

The fact is all Hamas wants is a dialogue to bring in missiles rockets by sea or plane, now their 1,200 tunnels to Egypt have been closed - and you don't talk to anyone whose PURPOSE has not changed, but just wants an easier way to wage war/kill Israelis.

Hamas has used wealth from donations and the smuggling tax to build so much power, unfortunately I don't see the 'goodwill' or trust on either side going back to pre Hama 2003 days.

So Hamas has to find a better way to wage it's war, without putting it's own citizens at risk. IMO.

Isitmebut - you sound as paranoid as the IDF.

And you're using the same phraseology as them - but a quick scan of the civilian death toll of the Israelis compared to the Gazans make all your arguments sound a little bit hollow. No, completely hollow.

I hear one Israeli child has been killed and it is considered absolutely terrible and has to be avenged.

I wonder how terrible children's deaths are when there are hundreds of them, but they are only Palestinians.

Sabriina ..... while I'm sure that if you lived in Southern Israel YOU would trust Hamas NOT to send one of 4,000 unguided missile onto your home and tell your Israeli government they need to give back the buffer zone, so Hamas doesn't take so much energy building a tunnel to greet you - alas others in israel don't agree with you.

Re the point on casualties, firstly waging war from a hugely populated area the relative size of a postage stamp will always produce more casualties, whether both sides had the same guns and ammo, its basic physics.

Secondly, just because Hamas isn't as good at killing civilians as ISIS, don't make them any more 'fluffy' to an Israeli.

The Palestinian/israeli conflict will not change while Hamas governs, or doesn't spend it's $$$$hundreds of millions annual 'missile money' on arms and doing what is right for its electorate, not just rebuilding Gaza, but improving it - and if in doing so it 'appears' to demilitarize, it can both 'save face' with the population that want all Israelis dead AND appeal to Israel (and the world) that it is showing it DOES want peace.

There you have it, the Isitmebut solution to arrive at Palestinian/Israeli; everyone will be happy, what could poss-ibly go wrong.

....."There you have it, the Isitmebut solution to arrive at Palestinian/Israeli PEACE; everyone will be happy, what could poss-ibly go wrong." D'oh.

Let's have a little comparison of the death toll in Southern Israel and in Gaza again shall we...?

A potential or perceived threat does not excuse crimes against humanity, or war crimes against civilians by a highly superior militarised army.

And poor poor Hamas, having that 1988 Charter stating their objective is to occupy Israel by whatever means, and having trouble killing enough Israelis to reach that goal - they wouldn't celebrate in the streets if every unguided rocket hit 4,000 schools, would they?

How the hell is 4,000 rockets fired, a similar amount hidden around Gaza, 32 tunnels dug to Israel over the past few years and attacks using those tunnels, "potential or perceived"????? lolololol

Next you will be saying ISIS is 'misunderstood'.

'the people of Palestine WANTS a war'

Where do you get this stuff from?
There is no war, there is slaughter and a massacre.

The people of Palestine want the world to listen to them and to help negotiate a peace with Israel that will grant them more rights than they have now.

I don't know what the Middle East Peace Envoy is up to at the moment and the Palestinian people probably don't know either, but since they are powerless and uninfluential, then they have to hope that he is working on a peace plan as we speak.

What's the civilian death toll in Southern Israel so far, Isitmebut?

Claig ..... The Palestinian government, Hamas, are designated terrorists by the U.S., the E.U. and of course Israel, who the Palestinians NEED to agree to any concessions, including the lifting of the blockade put in place in 2006, as Israel had this 'funny feeling' Hamas's intentions within their Charter to kill every Israeli to take back the land currently called Israel - wasn't honourable.

Hamas's objective and M.O. were well known to the Palestinian electorate whose children outnumber them, HENCE I ask, why did they elect Hamas, certainly not for their negotiating skills - so as no one has any other answer other than to increase pressure on Israel 'Hamas style', war was,is inevitable.

For ANY negotiations to give Hamas more power/land/means to attack Israel, no matter if His Holieness Tony Blair himself turned up, there would have to be trust in the Palestinian Authority not to attack israel - how can that trust ever be achieved UNLESS Hamas demilitarizes, which was Israels position in Egypt a few weeks ago, and will not change no matter WHICH negotiator turns up.

Why can't you and the Hamas apologists get that????

Sabrinnna .... could you please save that type of question to the threads with thousands of posts, where every time someone don't even want to contemplate Hamas are not bot scouts, they try and deflect the points being made? Thank you.

I'm not a Hamas apologist. I'm a critic of the IDF slaughter of civilians.

Sabrinnna .... could you please save that type of question to the threads with thousands of posts, where every time someone don't even want to contemplate Hamas are not bot scouts, they try and deflect the points being made? Thank you.

I can see why you don't want to answer questions like that - it makes the IDF position impossible to justify.

I am not a Hamas apologist either and nor is Daniel Levy who is director of the Middle East and North Africa program at the European Council on Foreign Relations and a senior research fellow at the New America Foundation. He was previously an official negotiator for the Israeli government in peace talks with the Palestinians under Prime Ministers Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak, and served as the lead Israeli drafter of the Geneva Initiative.

He says that demilitizaritaion is a demand that is unlikely to fail unless a political solution has been reached or a complete military defeat occurs.

www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/08/israel-gaza-war-hamas-palestine-peace-demilitarize-weapons.html

unlikely to succeed not unlikely to fail

Claig …… thank for supplying that link with the B-I-G introduction of the author, as on the one hand I fully understand WHY a demilitarization by the Gaza is NOT NOW possible - your link and further investigation PROVES the points on several of my posts on this thread – THE PROBLEM IS HAMAS, especially after being decisively elected in 2006.

The irony of your link is that Israeli Daniel Levy whilst explaining WHY that key current Israeli demand of demilitarizing cannot be met (it’s not the way Hamas rolls), Daniel Levy the lead negotiator for this draft *Permanent Status Agreement”, the result of 2-years secret negotiations with Palestinians and Israel, had “a non militarized Palestinian State” INCLUDED WITHIN the draft agreement of the Geneva Initiative below.

“Geneva Initiative (2003)”

“The Geneva Initiative, also known as the Geneva Accord, is a draft Permanent Status Agreement to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, based on previous official negotiations, international resolutions, the Quartet Roadmap, the Clinton Parameters, and the Arab Peace Initiative. The document was finished on 12 October 2003.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative_(2003)
Key concepts

_The key concepts included in the Geneva Accord include:
• A mutual Israeli-Palestinian declaration of an end to the conflict and future claims.
• Mutual recognition of both nations and their right to an independent state.
• Almost complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders, with a limited number of settlement blocs on the basis of a 1:1 land swap.
• A comprehensive solution to the issue of the Palestinian refugees based on the Clinton Parameters (2000); of which the main component will be compensation and a return to an independent Palestinian State.
• Jewish Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and Arab Jerusalem as Palestine’s capital with Jewish areas under Israeli sovereignty and Arab areas under Palestinian sovereignty.
• A non-militarized Palestinian state and detailed security arrangements.

You see although I understood the major powers (including Russia) put together a solution they called ‘a road map’ around the year 2000, I could not work out WHY the Israelis forcibly removed around 8,000 of their own settlers from Gaza in 2003 without getting anything back – and of course the REASON an unhappy Israeli P.M. took this highly NEGATIVE domestic political decision, was BECAUSE of the Geneva Initiative.

So the definitive answer of why the Palestinian people elected Hamas in early 2006, was they REJECTED OUTRIGHT the Geneva draft agreement ( bullet pointed above), which was AGAINST everything Hamas stands for i.e. recognize Israel, renounce violence and respect previous agreements, - so the Palestinian people KNOWINGLY GAVE the Islamic Jihadist Hamas a firm mandate for military exchange war with Israel.

Israel having moved towards the 2003 Geneva Initiative were rewarded with Hamas, a government the Palestinian Authority cannot militarily stop threatening/attacking Israel even if they wanted to, so the ONLY OPTION left for Israel to protect Israeli citizens is to demilitarize a Gaza with missile manufacturing and storage facilities, is by force.