Palestine/Israel

[Lady1d]

Can someone please give me the background to everything that is going on. Sorry to sound like a complete idiot but I'm not at all up to speed on current affairs and need an idiots guide

wow donnie ….. I can’t believe that YOU believe Israeli settlements OUTSIDE Gaza is the key determinant to why this current conflict is going on and, correct me if I’m wrong, Hamas from the 2006 Palestinian general election that gave them the balance of power, and their 2007 forcible takeover of Gaza from Fatah, have NOTHING to do with Israel’s aggression to a Hamas led Gaza?

The LAST peace plan, the roadmap, was drawn up in 2003 by the United States, European Union, Russia and United Nations – and correct me if I’m wrong, it was kinda agreed by Israel and the (then) government in Palestine. It put aside contentious issues such as the refugees' right to return, the status of Jerusalem, and the borders of a Palestinian state, and set out a two-year timetable by which agreement on a final settlement might be reached.

During the first phase, the Palestinians would commit to a crackdown on militants, while Israel would cease settlement building and act with military restraint.

But soon after the roadmap was agreed, violence on both sides ended the incipient peace process. Israel decided unilaterally in 2003 to withdraw from the Gaza Strip and parts of the West Bank.

In 2003, Israel made a unilateral decision to dismantle all Jewish settlements in Gaza and some settlements in the West Bank. In 2005, around 8,000 settlers were forcibly evicted from Gaza by the Israeli army, along with 500 from the West Bank, and moved into alternative accommodation provided by the Israeli government.

Many of the settlers, some of whom believe Israel has a biblical claim to Gaza and the West Bank, felt betrayed.

The Gaza Strip came under Palestinian control, and correct me if I’m wrong, as I thought THERE ARE NO ISRAELI SETTLEMENT ISSUES currently in Gaza.

An Israel that was shown to compromise in Gaza back in the early to mid 2000’s on Israeli settlements within and gave them control of their own destiny, believes it is NOW at war with a small army in Gaza that through numerous tunnels (that were there before the current battle began) wants to kill every one of Israel’s citizens if the could, why?

FATAH whose strongest support base lies in the West Bank, recognises Israel's right to exist and is formally committed to peace talks with Israel.

HAMAS (controlling the political agenda from 2006/7) denounces the notion of direct talks with Israel and does not recognise Israel's right to exist.

Hamas’ militia there, the Qassam Brigades, numbers 25,000, and it also controls a further 20,000 armed personnel, with or without their extremist chuckle brothers in Gaza, the Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade, Popular Resistance Committees and The Army of Islam.

This is why Israel will not negotiate while Hamas is in control, one way or another.

Just think what MIGHT have been achieved in Gaza and elsewhere if Hamas (Islamic Resistance Movement) had not seized control, as with Fatah marginalised and only ‘unified’ with Hamas based on internal power plays, the Islamist lunatic party’s have taken over the asylum.

So once again, this is why THERE WILL BE NO PEACE between the Palestinians and Israel, and Israel with such a threat on it’s border, must stop the build up of Hamas and their brothers military capabilities to wage war upon their own citizens. If we lived there, especially close to the tunnels, we’d expect the same from our government.

Isitmebut Fri 01-Aug-14 13:23:30
Or why Hamas (and other radical groups with Gaza) are using Palestinians they claim they represent, as human shields

before you get too carried away with your wild accusations, you might try to read the evidence from Amnesty International.

I do realise you will find it very upsetting, so try to calm down afterwards.

PigletJohn ….. Ref; Human Sheid.

I’d love to know what the EXACT agenda is for those Hamas apologists, scouring the earth to find little quotes and little references to support Islamic Jihadists, rather than accept the obvious.

I shall not read your link for the simple reason;

The Gaza Strip, 40 km long and 10 km wide, is home to around 1.7 million Palestinians and is one of the most densely populated places on earth.

Hamas and other combatants, numbering at least 45,000, have already shown their expertise in building/tunnelling underground, learned from the North Koreans and others.

So how possibly could all those combatants and all their facilities above and under ground NOT put innocent civilians at risk?

So how would someone used to blowing up people indiscriminately like to try and protect their facilities? Try to find a target the Israelis wouldn’t dare fire upon and by doing so, put their own civilians at risk..

Those are the FACTS, if that is NOT a Human Shield, I'll rename myself Saddam Hussein

Gosh isitme so now Amnesty Intl is nothing more than 'Hamas apologists' then?

Donne I would save your breath! Isitme has no intention on hearing you.....or anyone who doesn't have the same opinions!

The Times of Israel, a major Israeli newspaper, and quoted by posters in this thread on both sides, has just published an editorial stating that the "genocide" of Palestinians is "permissible". But it's just Hamas who want the destruction of the other side apparently.

Given the claim on here that there are 45k Hamas members in Gaza who need to be exterminated, with 80% of casualties being civilians, that 225,000 people Israel needs to murder.

The Hamas Charter categorically calls for the State of Israel not to exist, clearly by whatever means possible.

Hamas are a small army of heavily armed Islamist Jihadists in Gaza, that are aided by several nations that share Hamas’s purpose, and if they could, as in the past, would look to attack Israel and murder every Israeli, if they could.

Apparently NONE of these countries CURRENTLY have the balls to take on Israel directly, so the brave Jihadists in Gaza have chosen to fight Israel from BEHIND AND UNDER their own women and children.

Probably until Iran builds or obtains their nuclear bomb and smuggles it through to Hamas to try, via it’s tunnels, to place it as far into Israel as it can.

Hamas’s aims against Israeli civilians are clear, and so are their methods to all that allow themselves to see the war Hamas is choosing to fight. Israel has two choices with a Palestine poisoned by the growing strength of Hamas that will NEVER allow peace on their border; let them grow ever stronger, or not, and therefore take away their ability to do Israel harm.

“Permissible” is relative while Hamas builds and hides their arms and themselves around civilians; but whose claim to genocide would fall away if the brave men of Hamas and other Jihadists in Gaza did NOT chose to bring THEIR war, to their own people, this way.

Israel as the larger army with no chance now of a ‘one-state solution’ has no need to shell innocents in Gaza other than to reduce Hamas's ability to wage war and its own defence. Whereas Hamas and their charter do need to kill innocents, to keep their own followers happy that ‘the cause’ is still being fought.

donnie & emonslemons ….. re my opinions, they are well documented with FACTS, understanding, unlike others who obviously think the Jihadists formely know as Hamas, is really the Gaza branch of the Boy Scout movement, who didn’t break the ceasefire ONCE AGAIN, in a way they knew would ensure an Israeli retaliation on Hamas own citizens.

In essence, what does that Amnesty Intl report say other than; Hamas were guilty of putting their own citizens in danger LAST TIME, but they have not FOUND evidence (yet) this time – but Hamas having had a few years to improve their underground facilities, where are Amnesty Intl looking for the masses of Hamas’ armaments WITHIN the streets of innocents, in the Gaza Yellow Pages??????

Within a Gaza Strip 40km long and 10km wide, where COULD Hamas have stored the 2,600 missiles and rockets ALREADY fired, which according to Hamas could be HALF their stash, under their OWN Headquarter/political buildings? P-lease, don’t insult peoples intelligence with Hamas apologist bull-crap, basic terrorist common sense and area math GUARANTEES Hamas builds and stores ever more of their armaments under civilians, and therefore a legitimate target for Israel?

(Dec 9 2012) The Tehran-Hamas Arms Highway

english.al-akhbar.com/node/14300

“Of course, the visits were not limited to Hamas members. Members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard regularly visited Gaza to learn about the military nature of the Strip and underground ammunition storage capabilities used by the Palestinians.”

“Following the visits of the Revolutionary Guard and close inspection of Qassam Brigades’ needs, another phase of the relationship began. It centered on how to smuggle weapons to to the besieged Gaza Strip.”

“Since the Iranians are practical, they said that this increased the threat of exposure, so they built local factories to build the rockets inside Gaza instead of smuggling them.The revolutionary guards transported the weapons to Syria, which also opened its factories to Hamas. The next stop was Sudan, then to the Sinai desert, where Hezbollah took care of getting the weapons into the Strip."

“The only way to send in the Fajr 5 rockets was through the tunnels, so they were taken apart to be reassembled on the other side. Since the Iranians are practical, they said that this increased the threat of exposure, so they built local factories to build the rockets inside Gaza instead of smuggling them.”

“The M-75 rockets launched at Tel Aviv last month – and unveiled to the public for the first time in the recent operation Stones of Sijjil (baked clay) – were the local version of the Fajr 5.”

“When we began developing mid-range and long-range missiles, we undoubtedly benefited from Fajr 5 technology. We went to our friends who were experienced in producing such rockets,” maintained a high ranking Hamas official.”

“Fajr 5 rockets were sent to us from Iran, and we made use of their technology and developed it based on our previous experience and the geography of the Strip,” he explained.”

“The Iranians were amazed because they did not expect the residents of a besieged Strip to be able to develop them with such efficacy,” another Hamas official said.”

And Amnesty International were no doubt told by Hamas where EVERY secret above and underground factory was based, so they had 'evidence' Hamas was not endangering civilian lives. Hmmmm.

donnie, upthread you bemoaned no one answering your question: "do you think if Hamas stopped firing rockets the Israelis would stop stealing Palestinian land and farms - or would they carry on? would they renounce all their colonialist 'settlements' and give back what they have stolen, or would they keep all of it?"

I have an answer for you. Yes, I do think that the Israelis would accept a land-for-peace deal. Why do I think that? Because they agreed to the Oslo accords (and various Camp David proposals) which proposed just that.

And yes, I do think they would renounce their settlements. Why do I think that? They did so in 2005 in Gaza, forcibly ejecting Jewish settlers from their homes.

I wouldn't consider Hamas a suitable negotiating partner. However the Palestinian government in the West Bank has shown itself the tiniest bit open to debating the idea of a two state solution.

So there is outrage at the Islamic State (ISIS) Islamic Jihadists killing of innocents across the Middle East, yet there is still unswerving sympathy for those Islamic Jihadists with a sole purpose is killing Jews and reforming an Islamic State, where there is presently Israel.

I guess the main difference (and measurement of concern) is the ‘success rate’ of inflicting death of those ‘infidels’ YOU hate.

Hamas with thousands of rockets still at their disposal would rather carry on fighting and put their own citizens at risk than ‘demilitarise’, which is THE ONLY short to medium term chance for a negotiated peace and lifted blockade – but as I’ve said before, all life really is cheap to your average Islamic Jidadists.

If the Islamic State have any sense, they will surround themselves with human shields unknown to them that don’t march in the streets supporting their Jihadist aims as seen in Gaza over the past few days – and that way, there is no way world opinion won’t then stop the attacks on Islamic State terrorists, as they are WELL ABOVE average Islamic Jihadists.

Isitmebut, Hamas are currently in Cairo trying to negotiate a perfectly reasonable ceasefire agreement - rather a far cry from your hysterical assessment that their "sole purpose is killing Jews". If that's the case, they are pretty shit at it given that they've not made all that much of an attempt over the last few years. And this despite their handy "terror tunnels"!
Isis is so far from Hamas they're not even from the same book let alone the same page.
You really just make stuff up, don't you?

Backinthering ….. Hamas in Cairo HAS a ceasefire whenever they chose to stop firing rockets at Israel to get the guaranteed ‘take no shit’ reaction from Israel, that causes the Palestinian innocents deaths, that gives their cause of TAKING BACK Israel world attention - and (as Sky reported the other day) is HARDENING political opinion within Israel AGAINST any agreement with a militarised Islamist Jihadist Hamas on their borders, heavily funded/aided by outside Israeli enemies, including Iran, to FIGHT A PROXY WAR with Israel on their behalf.

So what Hamas in Cairo is negotiated for, is the ways and means to REBUILD AND INCREASE their war effort against Israel, now that the approx 1.200 supply tunnels for military and other goods they had with the Muslim Brotherhood into Egypt have been mainly closed, and the tunnels that took years to build into Israel, have been mainly destroyed.

And the quickest way to do that, is pretend that the women and children they gladly sacrificed for their aims are NOW important to them and must have the blockades on Gaza lifted - without denouncing their aims to destroy Israel within their charter and/or scale down the military war machine they have build in and under Gaza.

Without a Hamas demilitarization of Gaza that increased dramatically after Israel withdrew all settlements within and Hamas came to power, Israel’s government has NO OTHER OPTION other than not concede the ways or means for ANOTHER Hamas military build up, that indeed could take a few years and have BETTER missiles to kill Israelis.

I don’t live in Israel, and I’m 200% sure that you don’t either, but while Sunni Hamas have the SAME objective of an Islamic State in Israel, as the Sunni Islamic State (ISIS), and the ONLY REAL DIFFERENCE is that the Israeli’s are more than capable of fighting Sunni Jihadists back, I would not give a shit which book you are reading, I’d want my government to protect me, against those sworn to kill me.

Net result, opinions harden on both sides, so there will be no peace while Hamas remains in power and the Palestinians themselves, can't see that. IMO.

Isitmebut Fri 01-Aug-14 15:54:39
Ref; Human Sheid.
I shall not read your link

I can understand why. You don't want your fanatical world to be impinged upon by information.

There will also be no peace while Netanyahu remains in power, and the Israelis that voted for this can't see that. IMO.

PigletJohn … I find it rather amusing that you accuse me of a “fanatical world”, yet you spend so much of your time defending the Islamic Jihadists against Israel, still known as Hamas, and disparaging other posters views different to your own.

Firstly, if you look further up the page you will see that not only did I read your rather weak ‘no Hamas Human Shield’ propaganda as evidenced by my post to Donnie & emonslemons on 2 August at 00.53:12., I first answered on 1 August 15;23;05 why ANY defence of a Hamas ‘human shield’ is a bad impractical joke , so why the feeble attempt to discredit my ability to rationalise a view?

But let me sum it up; if a small country the relative size of postage stamp (25 miles long by 10 miles wide?) crammed with 1.7 million people, with 44% under 15-years age (pre first Kalashnikov machine gun age) living in homes on top of each other, Hamas does not have to physically ‘round up’ people to surround the secret underground etc missile factories, the several thousand missiles/rockets stored and the mobile rocket/imissle launchers, Palestinians CAN NOT GET AWAY FROM HAMAS'S WAR.

And even the most fanatical Hamas apologist should realise that just because Amnesty International who found evidence of actual Hamas human shield activities in the last conflict, but has found “ no evidence” now from better hidden facilities – the fact Hamas had MORE high explosives in the SAME Gaza square footage, HOW can any Palestinian innocent NOT be exposed to daily Hamas's ordinance dangers, never mind any retaliation from a larger force Hamas knows will happen ONCE they fire on Israel?

WooWooOwl ……. Re Netanyahu, that could very well be the case, or whoever else will be in power now unfortunately; as if those Sky reports on Israeli opinion hardening on a Jahadi led Hamas on their Palestinian borders is moving to the ‘right’, therefore Israeli politics has to follow.

As I intimated before, history shows several examples of long and deeply ideological conflicts coming to end due to brave politicians taking the prospect for peace to their own people, without fear for their own political future e.g. Russia, Mr Gorbachev, glasnost and the fall of the Berlin Wall.

But for the CHANCE of success, the timing is often crucial, especially if too many lives are lost and/or a perpetual war is financially screwing the economy and could be better spent. Logically, persuading their people to drop deep ideological fear, hatred and a resulting costly arms race FOR peace and increased prosperity, in a no brainer, ESPECIALLY if politically the other side is willing ‘to give something’ in return, ideally first.

Well that happened in 2005, when Israel then getting on with Palestine’s Mr Abbas from the Fatah Party and a 2003 ‘roadmap’ by major international countries as a long term objective for peace, Israel ‘s leaders decided after 38 years of Gaza occupation, (without further concessions other than a ceasefire) they would literally forced around 9,000 of their own people out of Gaza, thus ending the physical occupation.

And what did the Palestinians do with move to autonomy gifted to them with the prospects of more to come? In 2006/7 bring to power to speak and act for them Hamas, Islamic Jihadists sworn to destroy Israel. I read that the Palestinians though Fatah were ‘corrupt’, but what did that mean? Did it mean similar to their successor Hamas in enriching themselves to more power taxing the people, or totally dissimilar to Hamas in negotiating peace instead of war?

Re current negotiations, it matters not now, as the moment for political trust has gone from both sides.

Hamas with a 20% popularity rating prior to the recent conflict has to justify their own people’s sacrifice for Hamas’s objectives bringing back something from Egypt to justify the recent victory parade by Hamas supporters on the streets sporting the green colours of Hamas.

Israel may have allowed Hamas in by working with Fatah and their Mr Abbas (to paraphrase the Iron Lady, ‘a man they could do some business with’), when instead the Palestinian people preferred a perpetual war via Hamas until they get the lands currently called Israel, back.

In conclusion; politically or practically whether looking at their 2005 concessions to Gaza or Hamas’s actions since formed in the 1980’s, Israel will have absolutely no incentive to strengthen Hamas within Palestine, politically or practically.

Unlike Russia, I suspect the only way back to the negotiating table for SERIOUS concessions, is when THE PEOPLE of Palestine (rather than their leaders), decide enough is enough via the ballot box and use the prospects of a lasting peace (with the international major powers behind them) to force Israel to give them those earned concessions.

There was much better thread the other day that wasn't just another of Isitmebut's copy and paste bullshit odysseys that she spams the site with.

Thank for your constructive debate, poster.

Better?

No doubt pretending the whole conflict has just begun, Hamas are boy scouts, and that that the louder western leaders shout at Israel to let Hamas rebuild a larger threat and fight a well financed proxy war from external forces, equally calling for their destruction, Israel will say 'OK'.

And all live happily ever after.

The End.

There you are, it's probably the same now.

Isitmebut

"you spend so much of your time defending the Islamic Jihadists against Israel"

this is a lie.

Yes dear.

PigletJohn …… a simple YES/NO question re semantics and the term ‘Human Shield’ that you felt was so important, you clearly hadn’t bothered to read my replies on the subject, and raised it again.

Do you now understand why choosing to build up and fight an artillery battle with a larger enemy, within such a densely populated area, when 44% of your population can be designated children has only ONE purpose - to gain some strategic MILITARY protection for your own combatants, using your own population – as if that is not Hamas’s aim, why are they CHOOSING to launch thousand of rockets/missiles in such a densely populated area?

If not, do you think such military tactics are to win their own peoples ‘hearts and minds’, or just the Jihadist fanatics within, that apparently with so many civilian casualties, rarely get injured themselves?

To me this is like a single ship attacking another country’s Navy with the lone ships crews families living in the hold, and having informed the fleet commander facing you of that fact, expecting those forces to accept you pounding them with guns - because own lone captain was stupid enough to bring non combatants to a battle/war.

No, because (1) most of the documented use of human shields has been by Israeli soldiers, in contravention of International and Israeli law, so your postulate is irrelevant, and (2) since the Israeli forces have no respect for the lives of non-combatants (in contravention of international law) a gunman could lash a hundred new-born babies to himself, and they would not act as a shield, since the Israeli forces would simply kill 100 + 1, so your postulate is irrelevant.

PigletJohn …… so forget the EVIDENCE of casualties in front of you of the sheer military stupidity of waging a war from a 1.7 million densely populated area around the square footage of the Isle of Wight, because you haven’t seen it yet in a “document”, it must be Israel’s fault. Hmmm.

Clearly from your post, in your opinion Hamas is absolved of ALL responsibility for the welfare of their own people, as whatever they may do to endanger them, Israel whether responding or not, they’d probably do worse.

From the previous posts of yours I saw, often hiding behind quotes in “documents” I accused you of just defending Jihadists against Israel (meaning that you were incapable of seeing any ‘balance’ to a war Hamas wants to fight on it's terms), which you said was "a lie”.

From your last answer, my case rests m’lud.

do you attempt to deny that since the Israeli forces have no respect for the lives of non-combatants (in contravention of international law) a gunman could lash a hundred new-born babies to himself, and they would not act as a shield, since the Israeli forces would simply kill 100 + 1?

Does your international law "document" state the fuckwittery of conducting a war from a postage stamp territory packed with 1.7 million people, or should we press for an amendment to that "document"?

Does it not even occur to you that if Hamas SEPARATED it's war from the welfare of their own people, there would be less Palestinian civilian casualties?

When Hamas used to blow Israeli women and children up with suicide bombs on buses etc, were they targeting Israeli rockets and missiles on board, as although the results might be the same, 'balance' might tell you that there was LESS respect for civilian lives there.

YOU are typical of why there can be no peace between a Hamas led Palestine and Israel, as people are mentally incapable of finding common ground unless it means the Palestinians on what is currently called Israel's 'ground'.

Hamas wants war to that aim, and the sooner they realize that Israel does not have to return it's warfare on Hamas terms, the fewer Palestinian civilians will die in the future. God willing.