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Palestine/Israel

152 replies

Lady1d · 26/07/2014 20:27

Can someone please give me the background to everything that is going on. Sorry to sound like a complete idiot but I'm not at all up to speed on current affairs and need an idiots guide

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 07:28

Keep a good look out for bias, it is very common.

For example, the official Israeli line is that the Occupied Territories are not occupied, and the Illegal Settlements are not illegal.

Some people will also tell you that it is not illegal under international law, or a war crime, to deliberately slaughter and maim non-combatants of whom many are children, or to bomb and shell hospitals for the paralised and elderly, or schools, or declared U.N. safe havens. Chief among these liars is a loathsome man named Mark Regev. If you have a strong stomach you can easily look up some of his appalling propaganda.

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 12:43

The historical events can only be put aside if those OUTSIDE Israel no longer pose a CURRENT threat to each and every Israeli citizen, which is unlikely to happen; especially as the region is becoming more volatile, not less, and currently historically ‘hostile’ States to Israel e.g. Syria, are distracted by their own civil wars and/or Shia vs Sunni conflicts, where for the moment Muslim is far happier killing Muslim, than Jews.

But that can change on a few political decisions, just take Egypt, from mortal Israeli enemy, then a peace agreement that lasted for years, then democratically run by the anti Israeli Muslim Brotherhood, then not – but someone has to ensure Israeli citizens don’t get too complacent in the meantime, and currently Hamas has the well funded regional mandate to keep the threat on the Israelis going.

  • Hamas poses nearly as much of a current threat to Israel if it is PREPARING to kill Israelis at a moments notice, than firing missiles.
  • What are all these (30 so far?) tunnels from Gaza to Israel about, Palestinian access to the nearest local Lidl and Aldi stores????
  • Have you seen the engineering quality of these lined tunnels, Hamas should be here building Crossrail, they looked that good.

Hamas and similar, with their underground arms factories and other military ordinance is waging a well funding and orchestrated war against Israel, waiting for THEIR day to attack and kill as many Israeli civilians as they can and the only thing stopping them is Israeli resolve to stop them, in real time or pre emptive – as in ‘The 6-Day War’, where if memory serves, the Palestinians (PLO) were previously attacking Israel.

If the Gaza chose to spend the several hundred $$million ANNUAL donations on industry ABOVE ground e.g. white goods, cancelled their missile order with North Korea and generally WOUND DOWN their guerrilla war effort - with little economic and social downside domestically I can think of and all to gain - there would be HUGE pressure on the Israeli’s to respond accordingly i.e. reducing the buffer zone to Gaza, taking off the blockade etc etc etc.

But Hamas, Fatah and other factions in an area where the majority of the people ideologically would like the land of Israel back in their lands BY WHATEVER MEANS, I reiterate, I seriously doubt it is achievable.

Israelis at threat every day of their lives are aware of all this, which could explain today a poll I heard on the BBC, that says 90% of them want their government to do whatever necessary to protect them, which will include taking out military installations firing upon Israelis, cowardly using a Palestinian ‘human shield’.

Morloth · 31/07/2014 13:01

With every bomb they create the Hamas of the future, the children who survive this will grow up with a burning hatred for Israel and will seek to kill Israelis who will respond and around and around and around.

I don't think anything can be done at this point. I think they will fight forever or until one side is complete annihilated.

Humans are stupid. I am just as stupid as all the rest, if it were my family? I would rage for revenge as much as anyone else.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 13:03

It's great to have some people here who support and understand the actions and thought processes of the State of Israel.

Who will be the first to help me with this puzzling conundrum?

One thing I cannot understand.

Israel has tried to bring peace before by shelling and bombing the Palestinians. For some reason it has not brought peace and amity. Instead the policy of slaughter has increased resistance.

Having found an approach that has repeatedly failed, why does Israel insist on repeating the same approach? Does it think that an approach which has repeatedly failed will one day start to work?

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 13:57

PigletJohn …… may I suggest that you could be confusing a SOLUTION to the Israel – Palestine situation, with breathing space until the NEXT attack?

There is no long term peaceful solution until men with guns are no longer elected by Palestinians, and external States and/or ultra wealthy individuals are also willing to carry the fight one way or another to Israel.

Let me be clear here, I feel Palestinians have EVERY RIGHT to feel aggrieved their land was taken away from them, and several decades ago the (no doubt) men in Westminster had a lot to do with that.

Maybe a bad example here, but when did those in Scotland with a far friendlier foreign ‘take over’ (lol) all agree they wanted things as they were by Parliamentary decree in 1600 and whatever – as here we are 400-years later, still kicking the issue around all over again – are will be for the next 100-years, until the nationalists get their way.

So IMHO until the Palestinians (hopefully with a generous and workable offer in front of them) stand up as a unified people and say ‘enough is enough’ we would like this conflict to end so all those fighting on our behalf AGAINST Israel should stop, a lasting peace is not even possible.

Until then Israeli defence/attacks have NOT failed, for a relatively small amount of Israelis very heavily outnumbered by those within neighbouring Arab States. ‘with issues’, which on the subject of the land currently called Israel, are not without foundation.

Personally I'm not sure I'd give up, but at least know 'the gun' is not the solution.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 14:04

So you think that killing and maiming a few thousand people works, for a while

but at least you know 'the gun' is not the solution

Even if it's an Israeli gun, obv.

There is no long term peaceful solution until men with bombs and missiles are no longer elected by Israelis.

'mmmmm

not much chance of that.

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 14:24

"There is no long term peaceful solution until men with bombs and missiles are no longer elected by Israelis."

And then what, the land called Israel is divided up by an emboldened Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iran, ISIS, with a small area offered to the weaker Palastinians, who?

Name me a country is history that has 'rolled over' and said to their own government 'let them attack us, they know not what they are doing'????????

I think it was the 'Yom Kippur' War, if not for a few bad military decisions by Egypt, the State of Israel would not exist now - so whether threatened by 2-3 countries armies at once, or terrorism, the Israeli do not fight with a hand behind their back - and if the Palastinians haven't worked out that war with Israel will not be on Hamas terms, the poor people of Gaza will suffer.

donnie · 31/07/2014 14:30

so....isitme; answer this :

do you think if Hamas stopped firing rockets the Israelis would stop stealing Palestinian land and farms - or would they carry on? would they renounce all their colonialist 'settlements' and give back what they have stolen, or would they keep all of it? you have already dodged this question a few times so I'm having another go.

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 15:09

Hello Donnie … remembering the subject here is Gaza, on the subject of Israeli settlements within, I thought I did answer this as clearly as I could.

As far as I understood while ‘U.N. speak’ says Gaza IS occupied by Israel (due to buffers, the blockade etc), there are no longer Israeli settlements there since the Israeli ‘pull out’ around 2005, when the Palestinians elected Hamas to be their voice.

If there WERE Israeli settlements still in Gaza, I’d guess there would currently be Middle Eastern style versions of ‘The Alamo’, currently going down.

On a wider settlement issue, do I believe Israelis took the piss out of those in lands they occupied by putting in colonies, absolutely.

But Israelis having faced attacks from much larger armies around them (and kicked arse), are big on their own security and ‘buffer zones’, and Israel allowed official ‘squatters’ in. But I thought they closed some later in different places, which was unpopular within.

Would this have been an issue if Israel wasn’t attacked and kept lands from their attackers for their own security, I dunno.

Shoe on the other foot, do YOU believe spending countless $millions on imported missiles, or the building of domestic rockets (rather than improve the life of those within Gaza) will bring back those lands anytime soon?

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 15:21

Look up. In fact, the subject is "Israel/Palestine"

Would this have been an issue if the Israelis hadn't taken homes and land from the Palestinians continually, starting in 1948 and still doing it today? Dunno.

I think we all know that Israel will never give back the land it has stolen. It would be incompatible with the Zionist ideals that founded the country.

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 15:31

PigletJohn .... please provide qualified links detailing lands you state Israel has taken from the Palastinians over the past decade (or since the Gaza pullout), as it will add more pro Palastinian food for thought re the current conflict - as many posts appear to have more emotion than facts within.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 15:36

Isitmebut

I don't understand your question.

Do you mean you are unaware of Israel's continued expansion of its Illegal Settlements?

I find it difficult to comprehend that you could be ignorant of them

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 15:50

PigletJohn .... the majority of my posts are from experiences/memory and I bow to your knowledge on RELATIVELY RECENT Israeli settlements on Palestinian land; so as you have made a statement on the continual land grabs, I was interested in knowing where.

I like to think I'm big on facts but would rather not spend the time researching them from those that know better than me, so the floor is yours. Seriously, I wasn't aware they were still 'grabbing', so please educate us.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 15:55

yes, they are continuing to expand the Illegal Settlements and also the doubly illegal "outliers" which are even illegal under Israeli law.

I do not have maps to hand and I seriously doubt that it is worth my time documenting what you already know.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 16:03

but you can start here if you want www.timesofisrael.com/settlement-construction-rate-rises-70-in-2013/

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 16:09

Dear PigletJohn …

FYI this was not a trick question as why would I ask if there were any, or where they were if I knew? I actually thought you might say something like ‘although the Israelis officially pulled out of Gaza, ta dah, they didn’t as’ … etc etc etc.

So as it has now intrigued me, I will do my own research later and see what I come up with.

I think it is you who keeps telling me not to ‘cut and paste’ facts to qualify MY statements, which gives the reader the option of going deeper. Just saying.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 16:10

A recent Pew poll highlights an age group that is less than “supportive.” Instead of standing with Israel, the poll finds that a third of all young Americans aged 18-29 (Jews and non) in fact blame Israel for the Gaza conflict.

Curiously, the Times of Israel describes this as a move to anti-semitism. Obviously they are still relying on the old false trick of claiming that anyone who criticises any act of the State of Israel us therefore an anti-semite.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 16:12

or here

Isitmebut · 31/07/2014 16:12

Ok, just seen your last post, with an excellent link that saved me time later

You're right, the bastards.

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 16:16

or here

PigletJohn · 31/07/2014 16:20

population growth

donnie · 31/07/2014 16:27

wow isitme , you actually don't know about the massive expansion programme of illegal settlements which has been implemented in the last few years? wow. That explains a lot.

Good luck with your research. Let us know what you discover.

emonslemons · 31/07/2014 20:55

I'm surprised that anyone could suggest removing emotion from this debate......In the end are we not all human?!

emonslemons · 31/07/2014 21:01

I'm surprised that anyone could suggest removing emotion from this debate......In the end are we not all human?!

Isitmebut · 01/08/2014 13:23

emonslemons ….. please don’t be surprised.

There is probably close to 4,000 posts on Mumsnet threads FULL of emotion, often asking ‘why is this happening’, and no doubt SOMEWHERE INBETWEEN are some factual answers to why Israel is 'over reacting' by killing civilians taking out Islamist military ordinance in populated areas.

Or why Hamas (and other radical groups with Gaza) are using Palestinians they claim they represent, as human shields, and are in no real hurry to look for a ceasefire with Israel until they get their own objectives, allowing them to step up their Islamic Jihad, which goes back as far as the 1970’s.