Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

"The Cowardice at the heart of our relationship with Israel"

80% of Conservative MP's are members of the Conservative Friends of Israel

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/9740044/The-cowardice-at-the-heart-of-our-relationship-with-Israel.html

A very good quote from the article:

"On Monday night, one former British ambassador to Israel, the Hebrew-speaking Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles, made an eloquent speech from which it is important to quote at some length: “I believe passionately that Israel on its present course is embarked on a pathway to assisted suicide. Suicide assisted by the Congress of the United States. The idea that the problem can be solved by walling up the Palestinians in the Middle Eastern equivalent of the Bantustans, which the South African government embarked on in the 1940s, is not only offensive morally, it is deeply out of keeping with everything we know of human history. It will not work, it cannot work, it should not work. And anyone who has a real affection for the Jewish people will want to help them to avoid this looming disaster.”

[KeatsiePie]

mathanxiety would you mind explaining this?

The eventual establishment of the state of Israel did not come about in the end because of sympathy or the assuaging of guilt on the part of the international community. It was won by antiBritish terror before 1948 and national military defence against five states that invaded it the day after independence was proclaimed. The refusal and/or inability of other states to come to the fledgling Israel's aid despite in many cases previous expression of political support for the establishment of the state in the UN was duly noted by Israel (for instance, the US imposed an arms embargo on all combatants).

I'm not being snarky. I'd like to be more informed on how Israel came to be founded. You can of course tell me to fuck back off to Wikipedia.

[mathanxiety]

Have you ever heard of the Peace Wall, GoshAnne?

Do you know where it is located?
Do you know what purpose it was designed for?

[mathanxiety]

That was a response to (I believe) HoppinMad.

The invasion on 15 May 1948 was the start of the First Arab Israeli War.

[zinher]

Just downloaded the buycott app after being told on here. Thanks for mentioning it. Boycott Israel is the top campaign at the moment.

[KeatsiePie]

Ah, okay, thanks. I'm a little shocked lately by how uninformed I am of the history. I took advanced history classes 20 years ago and feel like I should know more.

[mathanxiety]

There are some enormous ideological chasms among historians writing directly about the Palestine Mandate and the foundation of Israel and subsequent history.

You can often glean a lot from critical biographies of world leaders and diplomats --Truman and subsequent US presidents, Attlee, George Marshall, Dean Acheson, Arthur Balfour, Stanley Baldwin, John Foster Dulles, Nasser, Churchill, Chamberlain.

A recent Jordanian history

[KeatsiePie]

That's a GREAT tip. I love history, but didn't learn that until pretty recently, b/c I had trouble getting into it or retaining it unless it's told as story, if that makes sense. I think I'd learn a ton from reading autobiographies. I just requested the book you linked from the library, will add some autobiographies .... thanks!

[AndHarry]

I'm reading Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles' autobiography at the moment. Can't say I'm a fan but his remark quoted earlier was spot on.

BTW I've reported so many posts this morning that this thread is going to look like Swiss cheese if MNHQ deletes them all. Can we please not get the thread deleted by calling troll on anyone who doesn't agree with you and personal attacks? Ta

[MarmiteMania]

For those wishing to boycott Israeli products, I do hope none of you are using iPhones

[TheXxed]

I use a fairphone which is conflict free.

www.fairphone.com/fairphone/

[ReigningQueen]

Well there's not much people can do about items already in their possession but we can start now.

[TheXxed]

Marmite you sound as though you don't believe the boycott will work. Clearly you did not attended one of the dozens of Pro Palestine rally's across the globe yesterday the strength of feeling was incredible.

[AndHarry]

Jon Snow: The Children of Gaza. He deserves some sort of medal.

[ReigningQueen]

This is what Hamas wants. I don't think it sounds unreasonable and surely could be negotiated. They want to live like free human beings from what I can see.
mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html

[edamsavestheday]

GoshAnne, that's a very powerful metaphor from the former ambassador. Israel may well indeed be committing assisted suicide.

[Springheeled]

I keep learning on this thread, I love the links. The quote from Cowper-Coles was excellent but in a way it made me sadder- there is no greater exercise in futility than this death and destruction when even those who support Israel wholeheartedly such as Max Hastings or Cowper-Coles are recognising that it is self- defeating and dangerously pointless.
Jon Snow is an incredible journalist. That video of 'children of Gaza' is superb. I was also knocked out by Emily Maitlis interviewing Regev, she could not really hide her disgust but she kept very calm considering. It's worth a watch!
So, until I can get a fair phone I'm going to use this one to download buycott. My only concern with boycotts is that if they dent profits that will end up being passed on to the workforce. I think that a boycott can only be one strand of a strategy.
One thing I remember about SA in the 80s was that as a child, I learnt about it really just through the prevailing culture: it was so very uncool to play Sun City ( I remember the song!) and there were songs in the charts about the situation, films, outspoken critics, alternative comedians and that Spitting Image song, which was the b side of their no1 ('I've never met a nice South African') ! Also the sport, etc.
This week, the cyclist's gloves, the speakers at the demos, Joey Barton (!) and that's about it- whereas with SA, even as a young child, I got the very clear impression that everybody except people like Norman Tebbit hated the situation in South Africa!

[AndHarry]

ReigningQueen those conditions sound ok to me. Anyone know what the problem is? Or is it that it's Hamas who are outlining those conditions?

[HomeHelpMeGawd]

This selective outrage really pisses me off. Almost as much as the abuse of the term genocide to describe what is happening, or offensive references to the Holocaust. I don't remember mass marches against the conflict in the DRC, which really is comparable in scale to the Holocaust, or huge threads on Mumsnet . More Palestinians are being killed right now in Syria by Assad than in Gaza by Netanyahu, but they have no one standing in solidarity with them. Inconsistent internationalism is really not ok.

[TheHoneyBadger]

nope no iphone, no using of google (massively unethical use of data and cynical creation of a social media platform quickly exposed as actually aimed at being the biggest identity verification system on the web) and when i go to collect my meds on wednesday i will be asking the chemist to ensure i have a brand not produced in israel, if they only had an israeli brand i'd go to another chemist.

i don't get these ha! you can't boycot israel we're SO important you'd never survive without our products.

just as supermarkets are heeding public opinion and rethinking buying israeli products so too will pharmacy chains if enough people were saying 'please can you check they're not from israel'. enough people do it then chemists just stop bothering to buy that brand and source another.

i'd also like to see every home and business and car in this country that supports the people of palestine flying a palestinian flag and every business that wants to be seen as ethical (and it's a big sales point these days and worth it if its something relatively simple to pull off) to display a 'israel free business' or the like in their window. could take off with the right publicity campaign and i for one would volunteer my time for free to that.

[edamsavestheday]

Jon Snow is indeed wonderful. Just in case anyone has missed it

[TheHoneyBadger]

i would happily also go around sticking stickers/signs outside business' that do or do not sell israeli products. that could work.

already academics have been joining the boycot refusing to go and give talks, attend conferences etc in israel. add to that musicians, actors and actresses, sports events/personalities etc etc and it will soon start to mount up.

i dare say south africa's leaders were initially just as cynical about public opinion around the world having any power at all. in these kind of apartheid systems where one side has all the power and privilege it is easy to fall into a sort of megalomaniac type trap. no man or nation is an island though.

[wannabestressfree]

Someone needs to make the first step. I completely agree the bombing needs to stop! But atrocities need to stop on both sides to enable peace. I think it's very short sighted to think it's just Israel's fault. Gaza is blocked by egypt as well. Hamas need to stop firing rockets, tunneling, putting nail bombs where it shouldn't, using it's citizens in warfare etc. I think some people are being horribly one sided on here without seeing the bigger picture.

Although we think differently my brother went on a March yesterday and I applaud him. We had a lovely debate without name calling or refusal to acknowledge views as we are both educated and don't have to rely on such things.

I don't think now it's a case of who started it or who's in the wrong. I am anti pain, anti suffering whomever it affects. I hope we can move forward. I do have concern though that a wave of anti semitism is upon us. Some people will use this to their own ends and like it has been pointed out Israel is a country and Jews live all over the world. Some people cannot distinguish between the two.

[wannabestressfree]

Israeli free business? I despair! I for one would never support that. Ring any bells does it?

[wannabestressfree]

Homehelp I was thinking the same thing. How many dead in Syria now?