Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

My question is does israel really think it will destroy Hamas and palestinian resistance with this campaign? Surely this type of senseless and ruthless massacre will only create more hatred and division?

Thousand's of missiles over a period of time shows serious intent, so would the world feel there was more 'balance' if they were successful in hitting Jewish civilian targets?

Pro-Israelis get really wound up about this point. As if the only way to redress the imbalance of proportionality would be for more Israelis to die, thereby affirming the deeply seated fear that 'the whole world just wants us all dead'.

Would it EVER occur to you that the answer might be FEWER deaths of Palestinian? In particular FEWER deaths of civilian Palestinians? Specifically FEWER deaths of Palestinian children?

Right now, the pro-Israeli side are condoning the targeted slaughter of children.

How can that ever be justified? How? Can anyone of you on this thread (presumably parents, but maybe not), honestly, in your heart and your soul JUSTIFY THE SLAUGHTER OF CHILDREN?

Because you are saying there is a justification. That is what you are living right now. You are pretending, saying to yourself "it's justifiable, therefore it's ok, it's excusable, it's not even really our fault, it's their fault". Classic victim-blaming and bully tactics.

You are living in a world where it's OK to slaughter children and wipe out a race. Is that what you really stand for?

If anyone reading this still doesn't know what side of this 'war' they are on, just ask yourself to start with:

Is it ever ok to slaughter children in a playground in a refugee camp?

Is it ever ok to bomb hospitals?

Is it ever ok to incite hatred and call for the genocide of an entire race?

Just start from there.

I do truly believe that good people will know the right answer and will find a way to stop this madness.

For any Palestinians reading this thread, please don't lose faith in humanity, we do support your cause and slowly but surely the world will wake up and put this right.

And as for your question PigletJohn, in my professional opinion, you would be insane, certifiably so, and you would be admitted to a psychiatric ward and restrained, for your own protection. Anyone who did the same as you would be suffering a folie a deux, and be similarly certifiable. Or, at the very least, gravely misinformed.

I refuse to engage with copy and pasted Hasbara propaganda. We are here for a discussion, a debate, not to be brainwashed.

"If you tolerate this, then your children will be next"

somewheresafe.
I agree. However none of the people who support Israel's killings and maimings will enter into a discussion on that question. I have often asked similar ones myself.

More info on the dead children in the playground - waiting for turns on the swings - don't know why that tiny detail in particular just makes so terribly sad. Those present apparently heard aircraft.

See www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-children-were-playing-in-the-streetwith-toy-guns-the-air-strikes-were-tragically-real-9634270.html.

makes it all so terribly sad

Piglet - apart from obliterating every single palestinian man woman child what else are israel trying to achieve? Only idiots and those with zero comprehension of the situation believe this is about Hamas or self defence.

So the end game must be for Israel to kill them all, land grab and redevelop the land and install settlements. Just as they've been doing for 66 years. Israel has no intention of creating peace in the region. None whatsoever.

You will have to ask a person who supports Israel's actions, but you won't find one willing to answer you.

You will probably find some who accuse you of anti-Semitism for asking, though.

i think it really is that simple. do you want to live in a world where slaughtering children is seen as 'ok'?

is it ok?

it's not even about being pro or anti israel or palestine it's a basic moral question of what kind of world you want to live in.

it is not ok to slaughter children in hospitals, in parks, on beaches, in UN schools. it just is not right and cannot be justified. if you find yourself justifying this then essentially we will never agree because we have an utterly different central value system and morality for want of another word.

the mental gymnastics required to justify slaughtering children and still be 'right' must be sanity destroying surely?

As we are all mothers does anyone really believe another Mother would use their child as a human shield?

Anyone here accusing any other poster on this board of condoning the killing of civilians in this conflict are clearly sick, ignorant people, who either have their own anti Israel agendas or refuse to accept WHY this is currently happening.

Gaza is at war with Israel and the simple fact is that a ceasefire is in Gaza’s hands; their objective is to stop the blockade and if they dropped that objective and stopped attacking Israel, it would stop.

The attacking of Gaza infrastructure indicates to me that Israel believes the majority of those within with influence, support the objective and attacks, but then again THEY are rarely living near the rocket launchers.

When the senior Hamas leader’s home was hit yesterday, didn’t his brother say that this glorious leader wasn’t in Gaza. No shit, no doubt on a holiday beach somewhere, leaving the shell fodder behind to make his headlines and achieve his objectives.

These ‘leaders’ are no better than African War Lords, all they care about is power and conflict, and don’t give a flying fuck about those women and children starving around them.

hello, Isitmebut.

I can tell you have read my post 09:44?

Would you like to reply to it?

Or do you just want to C&P familiar propaganda?

PigletJohn …. Re your 9.44 post, I thought I answered it on 11.11, which is after 9.44 and addressed to PigletJohn, which is why I ignored this post the first time.

But I’ll reiterate a few points I made, who ACTUALLY has it in their political charter to wipe the other out, Hamas, or Israel????

Did the 2,600 missiles and tunnels go FROM Gaza, or Israel?

Which party has refused to accept a ceasefire while the blockade of Gaza, that has been there a while (but rockets can still get in) remains?

no, you did not answer me, you just pasted in some more propaganda.

Isitmebut I spent quite a bit of time and effort trying to give you fair answers to your questions. It would be great to see what you think about them.

I am beginning to think that this may be about more than Palestine.

If you read former US ambassador John Bolton, it may suggest that Iran may be involved atsome later stage.

A great part of the Western backed Free Syrian Army and all the Jihadis, Al Qaeda, Isis etc attacking Syria was to weaken Syria and stop them helpiing Iran in a future war. Syria is tied up, Hizbollah is tied up and Isis has been created and wll attack Shiites all over the region.

Hamas supported the Muslim Brotherhood and Syrian rebels against the Syrian government and angered Iran who cut off funding, but now Iran is again supporting Hamas.

If there is a war with Iran, Israel does not want to be attacked by Hamas and Hizbollah.

Russia has been tied up in Ukraine.

If you look at the actions taken by the West towards Putin, I think a third world war may be coming, and that may also include a war or an attack on Iran.

'But in Gaza today, Israel is also battling the existential peril of Iran’s nuclear program.

Despite Hamas’ 2011 refusal to support Assad in Syria, Iran never forgot Hamas’ potential usefulness against “the little Satan”; Tehran and Hamas have resumed their strategic partnership.'

nypost.com/2014/07/28/fighting-for-us-the-real-stakes-in-israels-war/

This was what Bolton said last year

“Israel should have attacked Iran yesterday – every day that goes by puts Israel in greater danger, every day Iran makes more progress,” John Bolton, a former US ambassador to the UN, told The Jerusalem Post in an interview on Monday"

www.jpost.com/Iranian-Threat/News/John-Bolton-Israel-should-have-attacked-Iran-yesterday-319945

So far, Putin has resisted the bait and has not sent troops into Ukraine as he does not want a world war. So far Iran has resisted sending troops into Iraq to deal with the newly created and funded Isis. So at the moment, there is no world war.

But a strike on Iran may change everything.

"An Israeli strike against Iran “could happen in a matter of months,” Sen. Ted Cruz reportedly told a US Jewish security group."

www.timesofisrael.com/ted-cruz-israel-could-strike-iran-in-months/#ixzz38rekAgAl

PigletJohn … sorry, you appeared to have stated that the State of Israel only wants to kill civilians etc etc etc rather than try and take out military and other targets, which is clearly bollocks.

Maybe if Hamas has agreed to the ceasefire/and or stopped firing the 2,600 missiles – for the sake of their own people within - we’d prove it one way or another.

'Maybe if Hamas has agreed to the ceasefire/and or stopped firing the 2,600 missiles'

But I thought it was the kidnapping and killing of the 3 Israeli teenagers by suspected Hamas members that started off this escalation rather than the firing of hundreds or thousands of rockets.

Isitmebut

I don't know why you find it necessary to make up lies about what you think I have stated

Your post (look, I can copy and paste - why don't you try it) "is clearly bollocks"

On second thoughts, yes, I do know why you make up lies. It's because you don't want to deal with what I have actually said.

I've been following these threads with great interest. I'm utterly horrified by what's happening and struggling to think of much else.

Have these images cropped up on anyone's Facebook yet? I'd love to think that surely those who matter will start to listen soon, but it's not looking promising at te moment is it ?

I haven't seen them. What are they pictures of, and what do they signify?

AndHarry ….. please excuse me, your answers were not IMO definitive and had your opinion within, I didn’t think an answer was necessary – but I make short comments on the 4 subjects.

1. That Hamas are now political pussycats, with 90% of their money going on social projects, and no doubt are softening their anti Israeli stance within their charter. P-lease.

1. Despite UN political speak, Gaza is not physically occupied by Israelis, but we seem to disagree on the reason for the blockade, as you appear to think only nice commercial things will come in without a blockade, which I guess means you believe rockets and arms will still come in ‘the hard’ way.

1. Regarding aggression from the Gaza to Israel between 2012 to date, rockets aside, are you telling me that non combatants were targeted by Israel over that time, without provocation?

1. You appear to question Israelis inability to have a Middle Eastern tit for tat ‘little war’ when they are threatened by the firing of thousands of rockets at their people, when HISTORY shows confronting Israel with such aggression, is like poking a large bear with an expensive, but short, lollystick - and not expecting a world of hurt back.

If any country positions their military hardware within civilian areas and looks to conduct warfare, re Israels history, until as many as those rockets aimed at them are taken out, what should that frankly cowardly country expect? if they would prefer a ground offensive against them, military to military, tell Israel, I'm sure they'd prefer that.

But then again, with the key aim of taking away the blockade and not caring about their own casualties near missile sites, that appears to be the political strategy of WHOEVER now pulls the political strings within Gaza.

Orthodox Jews protesting against Israel in New York. 1000's of them