Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

Obama, Cameron and any other political leader who sits backs and allows state terror and justifies the killing of innocent babies and children are just as guilty of war crimes as the Israelis themselves.

I cannot comprehend their silence.

Me too Poppet, completely agree. I feel so depressed. How many more is he Israeli regime going to murder? Nutinyahu (thats not a typo) has said "We will continue to act aggressively and responsibly until the mission is completed to protect our citizens, soldiers and children," For all his faults he is not thick surely he knows that Israel will never be secure while he terrorises and oppresses Palestinians? He could kill all of Hamas but he will never get rid of the threat to Israel. Does he think the parents of the children he has murdered or the children he has left orphaned or maimed with life changing injuries will just forget about it? He knows full well the road to peace is not this one then why is he on it? What is his real motive?

Yes and are Obama and co complicit in his end game or unaware of it?

I should add either way their hands are soaked in Palestinian blood.

Anyone watching the former US guy for something on Al Jazeera. Unbelievable

An interesting read
www.stopwar.org.uk/news/whatever-israel-says-the-use-of-human-shields-in-gaza-is-impossible

Oh no, I turned off the the channel about an hour ago - whats being said zinher?

Re a request on another subject related thread, I’ll repost the following;
Trying to strip out the emotions generated on our news screens (that Hamas are relying on), may we look at a few relatively recent facts on an old conflict, with the conclusion that Hamas could stop the conflict at any time, but their ongoing war with Israel is more important to them.

Hamas when initiating (or retaliating) rocket attacks on Israel, their objectives
are to kill innocent Israeli civilians, including children.

Hamas when digging tunnels are not doing it for irrigation purposes, they are looking to both supply themselves with military equipment and attack Israel, usually with the object to kill Israeli civilians, including children.

Hamas are a militant organisation and similar to the likes of Hezbollah, often set themselves up in conflict areas and using cash from the likes of Iran/Syria then provide Welfare programmes to both ‘disarm’ and worm themselves into society in order to legitimize themselves.

Hamas (with it’s charter committed to the destruction of Israel) in 2005 became involved in Palestinian politics and in 1-year became the first Islamist organisation to win a democratically held election for control of the Palestine Legislative Council, beating Fatah - who were generally did NOT believe lobbing thousand of rockets trying to destroy Israel is both counter productive, and likely to result in a whole world of hurt back.

Hamas forcibly took Gaza, it’s stronghold, so arguably there is no political process that can REMOVE them, whether the people within still believe Hamas and their objective to spend god knows how much on missiles, rather than on infrastructure and better services for the Palestinian’s within Gaza, were again worthy of their vote.

Hamas will not currently hold a ceasefire as it’s current and long term political (and strategic) object is to EASE the virtual blockade Israel has on the area to ensure easier methods to import their next 2,500 rockets (2 weeks worth) to fire at Israel – and Hamas b y holding out for that key concession, knowing they have placed legitimate targets for the Israelis near vulnerable civilians, IMO says more about Hamas humanitarian credentials, than Israels.

Israel therefore has every right to defend its own citizens and no doubt sees Hamas and it’s rapid growth as a huge CANCER that will not go away on it’s own and will keep attacking them until eradicated – and if politically via the Gaza ballot box is no longer possible, WHAT OTHER OPTION TO THEY HAVE?

Israel came out of Gaza around the time Hamas came to power and guaranteed they’d never go back in again, so Gaza is not ‘occupied’, Hamas IS the government of Gaza responsible for the welfare of it’s citizens – isitmebut whether Israel needed to attack rocket launch sites in busy Gaza streets, is completely within Hamas’s power to stop???

Please tell me where I’m wrong on that.

Sorry, ran out of paste with the following (in my view) unbiased recent history of Gaza.

Profile: Hamas Palestinian movement
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13331522

You are absolutely right isitme but this thread apparently only has room for one sided debate and any understanding of Israel's side is met with condemnation and accusations of 'genocide apologists'......

The majority of this thread are appalled at the loss of civilian life, rarher than being more concerned with defending Israel, which seems to involve some weird mental contortions whereby it's not israels fault for the deaths of people they have bombed and shelled.
We've also had what feels like endless discussions about Hamas and their culpability. There has been endless evidence provided which shows that Israel fueled this conflict, and lied in order to do so, eg the murders of the Israeli teenagers being covered up for days and used to whip the public to a fever pitch.
Accusations of being simplistic ring a bit hollow when the counter-argument is 'it's all Hamas' fault'.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2709143/The-Gaza-teens-desperate-plea-twitter-I-survived-3-wars-I-think-enough.html

Such a sad state of existance the Palestinians are exsisting not living at the minute

It's Israel's policy to defeat unrest and resistance by bombing and shelling homes, beaches, parks, hospitals and schools. This is done in the sure and certain knowledge that the majority of those killed and maimed will be non-combatants, many of them children. Obviously this is inhumane and in contravention of international law, but that does not dissuade Israel.

However, let's look at it differently.

Israel has tried oppressing, confining, bombing and shelling Palestinians, killing and maiming them by the thousand, with the claimed justification that it will bring peace. It has used this method repeatedly. Every time, it has failed. In fact, it has increased Palestinian resistance.

I've got a bad knee. I have decided that the best way to make it better is to hit it with a hammer. Every time I try it, my knee swells, bleeds, hurts, and gets worse. I therefore continue hitting it with a hammer because I am convinced that is the ONLY WAY to cure the problem and I HAVE NO CHOICE and the pain is NOT MY FAULT because it is THE KNEE THAT IS TO BLAME.

Am I insane?

certifiably pigletjohn. however it's not your knee it's your neighbours and you're trying to cure your cancer by hittting your neighbours knee. now you're insane and inflicting pain on others in your insanity.

unless of course your aim is not to cure anything at all but simply to eradicate your neighbour.

PigletJohn …… firstly, do you agree that Hamas was formed with the main purpose to wipe Israel of off the face of this earth and that their ‘mission’ has not changed?

Secondly, do you agree with the events/facts within my short paragraphs on Hamas above, if not why not?

Next, when Israel left Gaza, would you agree that the ‘occupation’ ended and that if the Palestinians had made different choices e.g. Fatah over Hamas, a less genocidal stated regime (against Israel) within, could have been more ‘constructive’ in their relationship with Israel and maybe even prospered?

Finally as you say that Israel is the main aggressor, could you please provide any qualified proof/links that shows Israel has made attacks on Gaza after they left, that were without any provocation?

P.S. If the UK had on our borders a militant Islamist ‘government’ sworn to destroy us, lobbing over rockets and tunnelling in on a regular basis, would YOU want to wait until all those numerous attacks on the UK to hit a certain body count BEFORE your government did something about it?

If so, how many UK citizens in body bags from 2,3, 4,000 rockets would trigger a response that says enough is enough, Hamas’s intent is clear, for them their ‘own people’ are just tools of propaganda and they will carry on until their last rocket is fired – so lets try and take out those rockets and hope our blockade gives us a breathing space until the next attacks?

What is the difference between the madmen in Hamas and ISIS, other than the latter is currently far happier killing other Muslims?

thanks, HB

There are some questions that the people who sympathise with Israel's bombing cannot engage with. That was one of them. There are a few others that they cannot deal with because the answer is unpalatable, so you will not see them try.

hello, Isitmebut.

Did you read my post?

Would you like to reply to it?

Or do you just want to C&P familiar propaganda?

Very long post alert.

Israel therefore has every right to defend its own citizens and no doubt sees Hamas and it's rapid growth as a huge CANCER that will not go away on it's own and will keep attacking them until eradicated - and if politically via the Gaza ballot box is no longer possible, WHAT OTHER OPTION TO THEY HAVE?

Israel came out of Gaza around the time Hamas came to power and guaranteed they'd never go back in again, so Gaza is not 'occupied', Hamas IS the government of Gaza responsible for the welfare of it's citizens - isitmebut whether Israel needed to attack rocket launch sites in busy Gaza streets, is completely within Hamas's power to stop???

Please tell me where I'm wrong on that.

I haven't seen any support for Hamas among posters on this thread. Hamas do indeed do many terrible things, including the war crime of killing and attempting to kill Israeli civilians. The bit where you're 'wrong' is making Hamas synonymous with the Palestinian people and confusing the legitimate right of Israel to defend itself from Hamas with its current campaign.

"[Israel] will keep attacking [Hamas] until eradicated" - this is a nonsense. Hamas is not the only group attacking Israeli civilians. Say that Israel kills every last member of Hamas, it will then have to turn its attention to the jihadist groups operating in Gaza. Say it kills every one of them. More will spring up in their place. Again and again and again. The natural conclusion of this course of action is the 'eradication' of the Palestinian people.

I am not a fantastic gardener. Last summer I sprayed every weed in my garden, dug out the roots and took the whole lot to the tip. Job done? No. This year my garden is covered in weeds again. The only way I'll get the weeds down to a manageable level is when I finally get round to laying down weed-resistant membrane, topping it over with bark chippings and strategically planting nice plants that I actually want in my flowerbeds and encouraging them to grow. That would be the smart thing to do and until I do it I'll have the same problem every year.

In my mind, the situation with Israel/Palestine is the same as my garden. I leave conditions where weeds will flourish in the same way that Israel's blockade of Gaza, the heavy-handed security operations in the West Bank and the continual 'us' and 'them' rhetoric encourage conditions for Palestinian extremism. Every so often I get sick of the weeds and go in determined to get rid of the lot. Parallel is Israel's 'once and for all' operations every other year to 'eradicate' Hamas. Before I even get back from the tip, seeds for the new weeds have been sown. Weed-prevention measures and encouraging nice plants to grow would be Marshall Plan style nation-building in the Palestinian Territories.

"Gaza is not 'occupied'" - The UN would beg to differ. Security Council resolution 1860 (8 January 2009) and the General Assembly resolution from 20th December 2010 refer to Gaza as part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The UN also regards international humanitarian law to apply to Israel's actions in Gaza "in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war" (Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur).

"[Eradicating Hamas] politically via the Gaza ballot box is no longer possible" - actually, this year was the first opportunity since the elections 8 years ago. In April Hamas ceded political control of Gaza to a Fatah-controlled Palestinian unity government. A Fatah member, Rami Hamdallah, became the Prime Minister and immediately started planning elections in Gaza and the West Bank.

"Hamas IS the government of Gaza" - No it's not. See point above. - "responsible for the welfare of it's citizens". And yet you condemn their social welfare activities? I'm going to quote extensively from Wikipedia now:

Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.
In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory... [T]hose whose homes have been destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces have their rent paid for temporary housing.
...Hamas has funded education and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques and education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. (Me: Not so good...) Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas.
The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah.

"whether Israel needed to attack rocket launch sites in busy Gaza streets, is completely within Hamas's power to stop???" - yes the rocket attacks should stop. They are war crimes. I recommend reading UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay's statement to the UN Human Rights Council on why the "actions of one party do not absolve the other party of the need to respect its obligations under international law". To quote from that statement, "Civilian homes are not legitimate targets unless they are being used for, or contribute to, military purposes at the time in question. In case of doubt, civilian homes are presumed not to be legitimate targets. Even where a home is identified as being used for military purposes, any attack must be proportionate, offer a definite military advantage in the prevailing circumstances at the time, and precautions must be taken.
...Israel has stated that it has alerted Gazans before conducting strikes, including by using telephones, text messages and so-called warning "roof knocks," using relatively light munitions. Even if Israel has attempted to warn civilians to, for example, leave their homes or conducted an evacuation before an attack, this does not release Israel from its obligations under international humanitarian law. Any warning for civilians must meet with the requirements of international law, including that this warning be clear, credible and allows sufficient time for people to react to it.
A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives. Roof-knocking itself is costing lives, with one projectile - apparently delivered from a drone - reported to have pierced a 20-centimetre concrete roof, killing three children.
People - particularly the elderly, sick and those with disabilities - are not given sufficient time to scramble out of their homes. When they do manage to run out into the street, there is nowhere to hide and no way of knowing where the next shell or missile will land."

That Hamas is wrong does not make the Israeli action right, and vice versa.

AndHarry your posts are very knowledgeable and insightful and thanks for starting the threads.

According to reports Yesterday was the worst night. Paul Mason's blog of last night is terrifying . Israel has attacked the power plant in Gaza, also attacked fire engines, ambulances and people are also running out if water in Gaza.

Great post Andharry.

Isitme your posts smack of ignorance. You really need to educate yourself of the situation instead of pumping out israeli propaganda most of which was discussed and dispelled in the first thread.

Oh, and underling propagandist bullshit does not not make it fact.

I've tried to have every sympathy with the israeli people. I have family there too scared to voice dissent. I have no sympathy for them anymore. Where are they? Why are they not speaking up? They have no concern for palestinian lives but surely they should object to their own children being killed on the front line whilst fighting under false pretenses of self defences?

I can't be the only one shocked that instead of descaling it's massacre israel instead had stepped up the brutality. Almost the whole of Gaza is alight at the moment.

AndHarry … thank you for clearing up a few facts, and to summarise them as best I can.

Gaza has a government, which is currently not Hamas, so Hamas is now JUST a terror group with no legitimacy causing this conflict, within another weak Arab State who can do NOTHING about it themselves, correct?

Gaza without any Israeli settlements or troops within is only ‘occupied’ by Israel on U.N. paper, as they have anti Hamas/islamist blockades in place to help stop the Gaza import business of military hardware, they know will be fired at them?

Israel may target homes in Gaza in retaliation for Hamas (and others) attacks, and if those attacks stopped, Israel would have no reason to attack Gaza, yes or no?

Thousand’s of missiles over a period of time shows serious intent, so would the world feel there was more ‘balance’ if they were successful in hitting Jewish civilian targets?

somewheresafe .... re YOUR "ignorant bullshit", YOU live somewhere safe with no high explosive rockets aimed at you, yes or no???????

These onslaughts aren't about the rockets Hamas fires at Israel that barely cause any harm--much less the "genocide" that Netanyahu vents about. They are about destroying an organization that upholds the right of Palestinians to resist occupation. "Operation Protective Edge" is not about protection. It is about beating an already besieged population into submission.

Those who stand for democracy and against colonialism must reject the "blame Hamas" rhetoric and put the blame where it belongs--on the colonial settler state of Israel and its loyal supporter, the U.S.
socialistworker.org/2014/07/29/why-resistance-is-justified

Gaza has a government, which is currently not Hamas, so Hamas is now JUST a terror group with no legitimacy causing this conflict, within another weak Arab State who can do NOTHING about it themselves, correct? I wouldn't say so. Hamas is a political party who are part of a Fatah-controlled Palestinian Unity Government. By negotiating with Hamas to bring them back into a political process covering all the Palestinian Territories I believe that Fatah are doing something about it. Aside from that, I'd refer back to the Israeli scholar quoted by Wikepedia who says that 90% of Hamas' activities are directed towards social welfare which is not being adequately provided by the Palestinian Authority, the UN, Israel or NGOs.

Gaza without any Israeli settlements or troops within is only 'occupied' by Israel on U.N. paper, as they have anti Hamas/islamist blockades in place to help stop the Gaza import business of military hardware, they know will be fired at them? The UN doesn't make determinations like this on the back of a fag packet. Their legal teams, councils, committees and member states have determined that, under international law, Gaza is being occupied by Israel. As a separate point, the blockade of Gaza may be with the intention of stopping the import of military hardware but it affects every Gazan in terms of infrastructure, jobs and the wider economy.

Israel may target homes in Gaza in retaliation for Hamas (and others) attacks, and if those attacks stopped, Israel would have no reason to attack Gaza, yes or no? There were no rocket attacks from Gaza between 2012 and the present conflict. Despite this, 44 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces last year. Before the rocket attacks started again a few weeks ago Israel performed an air raid on Gaza. So apparently the answer is no.

Thousand's of missiles over a period of time shows serious intent, so would the world feel there was more 'balance' if they were successful in hitting Jewish civilian targets? I am very, very glad that the Israeli civilian casualties have been so low. 'The world' is not disputing that Hamas is wrong, only Israel's assertion that they are unquestionably, wholly right with no qualification on that moral rectitude.

I dnt know what the Americans are smoking. So now they are saying that Hamas and IRAN , yes Iran is responsible for the civilian deaths in Gaza but Israel is the one pummelling civilians in Gaza.

According to Al Jazeera that it is the second time the power plant has been hit. The first time the israeli said that it was a "mistake"