Establishment Paedophiled Part 2 : **Warning, potential triggers**

[standwellclearvehiclereversing]

A new thread following on from the previous one in Chat here

I am not sure what emoticon I was going for... Maybe not that one. Anyway you get my gist!

I am not following you lul can you give more hints, i think we are allowed initals? or a PM

Oh, well, I'm sure I haven't libelled anyone :)

Apart from the usual, the outstanding thing was the revelation about Roman tunnels under the resort - which the police denied I'm inclined to see that as incompetent covering-up! It's impossible that a large tourist development was built without a land survey, they'd have needed to install extensive underground services & drainage. If the 'tunnels' are aqueducts, they may even have been re-used as suggested by the photos of those soldier guys. But flatly denying their existence was peculiar in the extreme.

I dunno. If you attack every apparent cover-up individually, you'll be charging at windmills for eternity. It would be so nice if some of the very high-up coverer-upperers chose to break silence. That would weaken the whole structure.

I'm quietly rooting for Zac Goldsmith. He's not been my favourite posh bloke to date, but I like that he hasn't shut up about an inquiry.

Knitted GA was on the money... There is so much that stinks with that particular story, I read for weeks and weeks and felt like I was hardly any of the way through the evidence... I found the dogs very very compelling.... Will look back into tunnels...

I'm quietly rooting for Zac Goldsmith. He's not been my favourite posh bloke to date, but I like that he hasn't shut up about an inquiry.

Yes me too, I saw him in a shop once when he was younger, v v attractive, but yes, he spoke passionately about the subject, however he did keep stressing he didn't want to become the expert in it, but wanted somewhere to flow all the info too....

Perhaps we could email him and thank him for persevering with it, or something I think I will write to Simon D as well...

Ahh, Lulu, I've just been reading about those clever dogs. This might make the existence of tunnels irrelevant - though goes no way towards explaining why the police insisted there were none!

I'm going to give up my new-found interest in that case, I think. Things are complicated enough already.

Yes Knitted that would be a great idea. I only emailed my MP.

Perhaps link these threads and say we were disappointed to learn from MNHQ that many of the people posters wanted to come for a webchat on this were too busy to pin down, but that he'd be more than welcome anytime!

I emailed Simon Danczuk a while ago.. The response was to sign the petitions related to the issue. I spoke to him on facebook and he is keeping up the pressure and still waiting to hear about Butler Sloss's replacement.

Beyond that it is hard to know what else to do but I think a public and visible response would be good. There was a protest a while ago. Perhaps another would be a good idea?

My MP, a Tory educated at Eton, hasn't replied to my letter about it. He probably thinks every boy gets buggered, what's the problem? I'll suggest a Mumsnet webchat to Danczuk & Goldsmith though!

Simon wrote this on his facebook page a few days ago,

'Finally writing back to the very many people who contacted me re historic child abuse after I appeared at Home Affairs Select Committee.

I'm writing this in response to a comment made by GarlicAugustus in the Cliff Richard thread recently removed from the Chat section of the forum. According to GarlicAugustus, it has been PROVEN that children were taken from a Richmond care home to the Elm Guest House in order to be abused.

This is frankly rubbish. It has been ALLEGED (by a man with a conviction for fraud) that children were taken from a Richmond care home to the Elm Guest House in order to be abused, but it has only been proven in the minds of internet conspiracy theorists in the court of internet opinion. Which isn't, of course, to say that the allegations are false (even though Mary Moss denies that Chris Fay ever worked for NAYPIC), just that they should be treated with caution.

Incidentally, I would be interested to know why you think Geoffrey Dickens would hand his explosive dossier containing information about the Elm Guest House to Leon Brittan, who was named on Fay's list?

Mary Moss and Chris Fay are joint authors of an early study on institutional child abuse: Moss, M., Sharpe, S. and Fay, C. (1990) Abuse in the Care System: A Pilot Study by the National Association of Young People in Care, London.

I don't know what information Geoffrey Dickens had in 1984. Neither do you, unless you have a copy of that dossier. I do know he began compiling the information as a consequence of investigations made in his Manchester constituency, not Barnes. Parties were still going on at the Elm, and no information had been made public. Fay's list didn't yet exist - yet you're suggesting Dickens should have seen it?

I'm only replying to you, "truthseeker", for the sake of balance. I have no interest in engaging with a poster who seems strongly invested in the re-establishment of silence around this problem.

I watched the jimmy saville documentwry last night, its still on deemand on sky

Would you (or anyone) mind giving an overview of it beyond - I'm sure there are many like me who don't have access to sky.

whistling

I'm pretty sure this is it, already on youtube!

I hope the link works

Simon Danczuk's tweeted that he'd be happy to do a MN webchat! (it's on the Twitter feed over there --> right now.)

Poor bloke will need to to book a good few hours with the amount of questions everyone on here has!

Yh, and have a shortcut set up for "I'm not at liberty to comment on that"

Allegations surrounding Elm Guest House are in the mainstream press, truthseeker. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/special-report-police-revisit-the-grim-mystery-of-elm-guest-house-8420435.html They are not just linked to Chris Fay. I think a lot of people on this thread tend to just believe kids were abused if they say they were. Garlic isn't spouting tittle tattle for the fun of it. There is a lot of weight behind the allegations.

Why would she think Brittan was handed the dossier by Geoffrey Dickens? Er, because he was. It was in recent news.

Can I also remind you that rumours relating to Savile being a paedophile and necrophiliac floated around the internet for some years on sites supposedly frequented by 'conspiracy theorists.' Turned out to be true though didn't they?

Come on Mumsnet, get Simon Danczuk in and we'll hear what he has to say about the cover up of the abuse of children.

I've been following these threads, have signed petition and stuck some links on fb. I've been reading links but only tonight did I get round to looking at the one Garlic linked as being very very graphic. I think I'd always assumed child sex abuse was "just" (I apologise for that term but don't know how else to phrase it) rape of children. I have sat and read that link, and the descriptions of the murder and abuse of toddlers and older children with weapons and the most appalling practices, the involvement of animals etc. I'm absolutely reeling. This is beyond anything my imagination could have comprehended. If what happened there (is it Belgium, I couldn't focus on details), has also happened here and is still happening here then this needs to be blown wide open.

I think you don't want to believe human beings capable of such vile acts, and because the media is largely silent, details of abuse is never given out people assume it's "not that bad", a phrase I've heard banded about in RL rather too often. I don't think it's possible that the phrase "child sex abuse" could conjure up anything close to the acts described in that link. It's like when you watch crime shows featuring a psychopath who does awful things and you mention it to a friend or your partner. They almost always say "oh it's not real, it's made up things like that don't happen in RL". It's wanting to believe these things aren't real, isn't it?

I'm sorry if I'm not making much sense, I'm just struggling to put my deep deep horror and revulsion into words. This is huge isn't it? And we are pretty much powerless to stop it if someone in authority doesn't act. I suddenly feel so very small and so very insignificant.

Argh I've read that back and I am IN NO WAY saying that rape isn't bad. I have been raped myself and know how traumatic and life destroying it can be. I was just trying to verbalise how the thought of the rape of children is so horrific on its own that I hadn't every begun to think that child sex abuse may go further than that, or be anything close to some of the acts described in that link. They are beyond the worst horror films I have seen. Things which I wouldn't have been able to think up in my worst nightmare. I am in no way saying that rape is "lesser". I hope that makes sense. I'm struggling to form my thoughts into sentences that make sense.

Shadows, you're making perfect sense. You've used some of the exact phrases that filled my mind after reading the document (and similar - there are more, from many countries.) In some peculiar way, I think we've ... again, 'normalised' isn't the right word but I'm going to use it ... normalised CSA as kiddy-fiddling, molestation, buggery - as if that weren't bad enough. The realities are so much worse.

I didn't start finding out about the extent of it until Haut La Garenne was excavated. That was in Britain.

:(

Shadow, I agree with Garlic. I think you've articulated very well the fears and reactions evoked by what seems to be unravelling around us.

It must also be so completely disheartening to all the very truly wonderful people who work closely to protect children and vulnerable others - the fear and shock waves these kinds of stories must ricochet throughout professions, making their work SO much harder. To gain trust from those who have had theirs abused in such terrible ways. Just how do you get that back? It's another sinister and protective layer perpetrators can hide behind.

Thank you Sneeze, for that link.

It's great we've had a reaction from Simon Danczuk, hopefully MNHQ will act on it and others may follow suit!

Scandip - yes, ALLEGATIONS surrounding Elm Guest House are in the mainstream press, but that's all they are: allegations. They haven't been proven as claimed by GarlicAugustus, and I think people should treat them with caution, that's all. Just because someone on the internet claims that something is true, does not make it so.

By the way, the allegations ARE 'just linked to Chris Fay', or at least they originate with him. He is the whistleblower. He is also a convicted fraudster, who Mary Moss has claimed did not work for NAYPIC. As GarlicAugustus has pointed out, Mary Moss and Chris Fay are joint authors of an early study on institutional child abuse, so I don't know why Moss would make that claim (perhaps they had a falling out), but it clearly casts some doubt on his credibility.

And I agree, Brittan was handed the 'explosive' dossier by Geoffrey Dickens - he even wrote a letter acknowledging that he had received it. But Leon Brittan is one of the alleged perpetrators named by the conspiracy theorists, and not just in connection with the Elm Guest House. He was allegedly named in the dossier. Does it make sense to you that Dickens would hand the dossier to one of the alleged perpetrators named in it?

The police were watching the guest house in the eighties. Abuse did go on at the house. There isn't any real need to say 'allegedly.' Of course I can't know to what extent it went on, but credible news reports state that boys were interviewed and stated that they were abused there. It seems that the boys were not viewed as credible witnesses and so charges were not brought. If you think about what is seen as a credible witness, it is not difficult to realise that this doesn't mean the lads could have been lying, just that they didn't fit the somewhat unfair criteria required for a case to stand up in court. So surely Chris Fay wasn't the sole source of information on what was going on. See this article. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/special-report-police-revisit-the-grim-mystery-of-elm-guest-house-8420435.html

The whole dossier thing is shady. I don't know what the heck happened there. That's my honest answer.

Whatever we think about Chris Fay, there were boys who said they were abused there. I am inclined to believe them. Also, convicted fraudster or not, what would motivate Chris Fay to lie about this? I don't think he is.