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Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

971 replies

AndHarry · 17/07/2014 11:50

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

OP posts:
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TheHoneyBadger · 22/07/2014 07:58

i've got manic street preachers playing in my head, 'and if you tolerate this, then your children will be next'

sherazade · 22/07/2014 08:08

Thank you for this thread and for the tremendous show of support for Gaza on mumsnet. Some of the messages here have really brought tears to my eyes.. It gives me some relief to know that people are so much more aware of the atrocities committed by Israel against the Palestinians and are generally better educated about the history and politics of the region.
Every morning I anxiously check the news to see what horrors are raining down on Gaza's civillians. Will it be white phosphorus today? That burns through flesh and bone with only a particular chemical antidote that stops the burning ? Will it be flechette shells? nail bombs? cancer inducing DIME bombs? Have they hit another hospital or school? Thankfully nobody believes Israel's lies about human shields and self defence anymore . This is ethnic cleansing at its most horrific.

TheHoneyBadger · 22/07/2014 08:16

does anyone with better international law knowledge know whether it is a crime to support war crimes - re: supply weapons, money or even just speak in support of the aggressor? if it's not i think it needs to be and if it is i wonder if we can accuse our own government of doing so?

PigletJohn · 22/07/2014 08:51

Israel does not consider itself bound by international law.

somewheresafe · 22/07/2014 09:05

And historically israel has not been bound by international law despite many many breaches of it.

Israel is currently above all laws.

TheHoneyBadger · 22/07/2014 09:36

yes but i wondered if accessories to the crimes are? if uk is selling them weapons, america is giving them millions of dollars and both are standing up and agreeing with their actions is there any case against them for doing so?

TheHoneyBadger · 22/07/2014 09:36

i'm just wondering if there is any legal way to hold our governments to account for their actions or apply pressure to stop their assistance of this regime.

Nads0622 · 22/07/2014 09:59

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crescentmoon · 22/07/2014 10:38

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somewheresafe · 22/07/2014 10:51

Stephanie dekker from al jazeera has tweeted to say that the al jazeera offices have been hit by two missiles and they are vacating. Reports also of UN schools being targeted. The UN schools are full to the brim of innocent civilians who left their homes

No doubt apologists will be along to argue that Hamas were hiding or building tunnels under the UN schools and at the al jazeera offices.

spongeypop · 22/07/2014 11:57

Why did the Israelis close all Embassies and consulates WORLDWIDE in March?

TheXxed · 22/07/2014 12:05

I have deliberately kept away from this thread as I find the atrocities in Gaza utterly soul destroying.

I am so glad to see there are people braver than me willing to talk about the indiscriminate murders being carried out by the state of Israel and go head to head with those trying to justify the indefensible.

AndHarry · 22/07/2014 12:29

For anyone else who's interested in how Palestinian and Israel children are taught, I found an excellent Wikipedia article summarising the various comparative studies of textbooks done over the years: article here. I'm going to take some time to read the various reports. Does anyone know if there's a non-aligned NGO or other body engaged in writing textbooks for children on both sides of the conflict, aimed at preparing for peace?

OP posts:
Nads0622 · 22/07/2014 12:37

I'm boycotting the pharmaceutical company teva. it is one of israels main contributors to its economy which finds it's military service

funambulist · 22/07/2014 12:38

www.palestinecampaign.org/next-london-demo-26th-july/

Palestine Solidarity Campaign are organising a vigil tonight outside the Israeli Embassy 5.30-7.30pm and a demonstration this Saturday starting at noon outside the Israeli Embassy and marching to Parliament for a rally there at 2.30pm.

babbas · 22/07/2014 12:47

There is also a vigil to be held in Oxford for the Oxford brooks scholar Hassan hallak who had travelled to visit palestine with family. They were there to prepare to celebrate Eid. His pregnant wife and 2 small boys and parents were killed. He is in intensive care.

Israel is determined to wipe out a whole race this time.

It was very very heartwarming to see a member of a kibbutz near sderot speaking to C4 yesterday saying he would like to.open his house to safeguard the palestinians and would be able to take in a family of 5. He was saddened that the palestinians were, due to seige, unable to leave Gaza and get to safety. It brought a tear to my eye. Such bravery in the full view of others who were sat on sofas cheering on the bombs.

ShineSmile · 22/07/2014 13:22

If this is true (?), it explains a lot Hmm:

''While many articles have debunked the myth that Israel is acting out of “self-defense,” very few have attempted to establish why Israel is continuing its assault on Palestine through Operation Protective Edge, aside from the supposition that Zionists have a fanatic penchant for drawing Palestinian blood. Behind the operation, behind the mass Israeli and U.S. propaganda attempting to justify the massacre, and behind the death of every child in Gaza is a conflict rarely discussed, an imperialist conflict and a contradiction that rests on Israel’s ambitions to appropriate and profit from Gaza’s natural gas resources.

To provide some background, the natural gas issue arose in the year 2000 when British Gas (BG) discovered what they claimed to be $4 billion worth of natural gas reserves off the coast of Gaza. The Palestinian Investment Fund (PIF) and British Gas (BG) both invested in the project, with BG holding 60% of the rights. Since then, more gas has been found in the region. Michel Chossudovsky, a Canadian economist, has estimated that the amount of gas in Palestine is so grand that it could make Palestine as rich as Kuwait. In due reaction, since 2000, Israel has strengthened its maritime blockade on Gaza, denying Palestine basic rights over its territorial waters, driving away Palestinian fishing boats, and contaminating the waters so heavily from its naval attacks that the fishing industry essentially collapsed. “On its coastal littoral,” reported Peter Beaumont from Gaza several years ago, “Gaza’s limitations are marked by a different fence where the bars are Israeli gunboats with their huge wakes, scurrying beyond the Palestinian fishing boats and preventing them from going outside a zone imposed by the warships.” It is discernible that this is directly due to Israel’s appetite for Palestinian gas.

In recent years, Israel’s energy crisis has deepened, as marked by a letter by two Israeli scientists. “We believe Israel should increase its [domestic] use of natural gas by 2020 and should not export gas,” the letter reads. “The Natural Gas Authority’s estimates are lacking. There’s a gap of 100 to 150 billion cubic meters between the demand projections that were presented to the committee and the most recent projections. The gas reserves are likely to last even less than 40 years!” As the need for energy has grown in Israel, so have their ruthless attempts to seek it.

After the election of Hamas in 2006, Israel began negotiating with BG since, according to the former chief of staff of the IDF Moshe Ya’alon, the previously negotiated investment meant that a portion of the revenue could fall into the hands of Hamas and ‘threaten’ Israel. In other words, Israel wanted the gas, but they did not want part of the revenue to go to Hamas. Their solution, therefore, was to get rid of Hamas. More accurately, it is safe to affirm that Israel both desires a financially and militarily weaker opposition as well as a more subservient entity that may agree to willingly hand over its natural gas to Israeli profiteers.

Operation Cast Lead began in June 2008, at the exact same time that Israel contacted BG to discuss critical negotiations around Gaza’s natural gas. As these negotiations continued, Israel was killing 1,417 Palestinians, displacing over 50,000 Gazans and destroying over 4,000 homes through air strikes and a deadly ground invasion with the declared purpose of securing areas within the Gaza strip that rockets were fired from. In reality, it had nothing to do with the rockets, or a notion of “self defense”, considering how disproportionate the casualties were—just as they are now under operation protective edge. It was merely a means as part of Israel’s overall goal of appropriating Palestinian natural gas, both through territorial control and the failed attempt to defeat Hamas.

WE NEED TO BOYCOTT "BRITISH GAS".

They are the main reason why the Israelis are bombarding and destroying so many lives in Gaza right now.

British Gas signed a deal recently to extract upto "1 Trillion" cubic feet of gas which has been discovered of the coast of Gaza. They are currently negotiating a deal to purchase 20% of all gas reserves from the Israelis. They will pay £20 billion to the Israelis for gas that belongs to the palestinians.

Under international law, this vast untapped potential wealth belongs to the people of Gaza.
Israel knows this.
British Gas knows this.
The British government knows this.
BUT, because a British company has a massive vested interest in Israel - the British governments complete silence in the face of such barbarism, destruction and wanton disregard for the value of palestinian life reveals that they too value business interests far more than they do human life.

This is a war of geo - politics. A war to grab resources and facilities to aid in the extraction of gas. None of the vast sums to be paid will be paid to the palestinians. Apparently the palestinians would only use the paltry 1 billion set aside for them to fund terrorism. They instead will receive aid !!

By signing this deal with Israel, British Gas is actively encouraging and perpetuating not only this war but future transgressions against the palestinians.
They are not pulling the trigger but they are happy to let others do it! ''

PigletJohn · 22/07/2014 13:29

on a point of detail, "BG" is an oil exploration and extraction company which operates internationally. It is totally unconnected to Centrica, which is the company that uses the British Gas brand name in the UK only, for the supply of gas through the mains to UK homes and businesses.

The similarity in the names arises from the dismemberment and selling-off of national assets by the Thatcher government many years ago.

ShineSmile · 22/07/2014 13:31

Thanks piglet!

PigletJohn · 22/07/2014 13:32

you might like to inform the person who wrote that inaccurate and misleading article.

unrealhousewife · 22/07/2014 15:53

Some light comic relief

vimeo.com/50531435

ReigningQueen · 22/07/2014 15:54

Gosh Shinesmile. It all makes some kind of appalling sense now. I'm horrified. I found several articles supporting that.
m.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisis-israel-invading-secure-palestinian-4bn-gas-reserves-1457356

unrealhousewife · 22/07/2014 16:01

My view

Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict
BlingBubbles · 22/07/2014 19:23

I have been following both of these threads and have been taking on board all the posters points of view, I even downloaded some books on my kindle of the history of these two countries so that I could try and understand the conflict better.

After reading the threads, watching the news and reading the history books I must say that I am gobsmacked that Israel was / is being allowed to get away with this, its absolutely DISGUSTING!!!!

The scenes coming out of Gaza today are horrifying and I honestly dont see how it will all end.

Children in Gaza and Israel will grow up hating each other, of course they will, if you have lived through the last few weeks of terror and torment like these children have and witnessed your friends and family be killed of course you will hate the people doing it to you. Its a vicious circle!

its so sad!!

somewheresafe · 22/07/2014 19:33

It's desperately tragic. Israel's has alienated the world. It's bombing of schools and hospitals highlights the depths to which it has plunged. It is depraved and immoral and is deserving at the venom and boycotting of the world.

Despite all this we have to cling on yo the positive stories on this thread and other threads which highlight the good within ordinary people on both sides. Netanyahu is far far more evil than I gave him credit for.

Jon snow on C4 all this week from Gaza is doing a bloody fantastic job.

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