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Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

971 replies

AndHarry · 17/07/2014 11:50

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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somewheresafe · 20/07/2014 20:55

I'm glad you are back peoplepleaser. I am sorry for what your people in Gaza are going through. There are no words. Just outrage.

somewheresafe · 20/07/2014 20:57

Oh ffs quivering! There are no fucking weapons in the homes in sharjeya. You are truly crossing the line with your insensitivity.

Your justifications are absolutely despicable. Have you seen the photos of sharjeya?

babbas · 20/07/2014 21:00

Quivering - seriously??!

You really need to start thinking before you post. I'm seriously offended by your comments.

Backinthering · 20/07/2014 21:01

"When Palestinians die, says Israeli human rights organisation B’Tselem spokeswoman Sarit Michaeli, “Israelis don’t deny [they] have died, but they’ve simply done a mental process that blames the Palestinian deaths on Palestinians themselves.” Gaza residents are homogenised as Hamas supporters – even though most were not of voting age when the group was elected in 2007 – justifying collective punishment."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/20/gaza-occupation-occupier-israelis-peace

Quivering, I can see what Sarit Michaeli means when I see your comments.

ThePeoplePleaser · 20/07/2014 21:01

Hamas are a political party elected by Palestinian Muslims and Christians alike. Nobody is perfect and there is fault on both sides, but the cries of the constant 'terrorist' shite from the biggest terrorists that walk the earth is the worst hypocrisy I've seen.

Why is it when America invade lands, kill hoards of civilians with drones and shells and take the oil, that isn't called terrorism? Why when Israel commit atrocities against Palestine aren't they called terrorists?? Why is it when Muslims defend the country against these bastards coming in to deliberately murder five month old babies and school kids on a beach, they are called fcuking terrorists?
This line is used exclusively for us. It has come to be what define us. Hamas are terrorists apparently for fighting Israelis but Israel has a right to defend itself.

Backinthering · 20/07/2014 21:02

I agree ThePeoplePleaser. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.

Yruapita · 20/07/2014 21:03

Agree honey. This is just power crazed Netanyahu and brainwashed people. What else do you call it when they robotically repeat the same lies over and over again with complete inhumanity towards the palestinian oppressed. They have been given victim status for so long that they actually feel sorry for themselves and think only they know what suffering is. Well, the world has suffered them enough with their bull rhetoric and rightly so - the eyes of the world are wide open now.

Human Rights Watch for one are sick of Israel. They have urged Palestinians to seek membership of International Criminal Court. They said that this would send a strong message to Israel that such crimes cannot be committed with impunity.

Of course Israel and US put loads of pressure on Palestine not to join. UK and France, who are members of ICC said that Palestine shouldnt join as it would undermine peace talks! What a sick joke! Basically, Israel dont want accountability, whereas Palestine is willing to be held to account. Could it be because Israel has a lot to answer for? Wake up israeli apologists.

Here is the full article below - well worth reading:

Palestine: Go to International Criminal Court
Impartial Justice, Deterrence to Serious Crimes Sorely Needed
MAY 8, 2014
(Jerusalem) – Palestine should urgently seek access to the International Criminal Court (ICC), a group of 17 Palestinian and international human rights groups, including Human Rights Watch, said today.

In a letter to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, the groups said that providing the ICC with jurisdiction could give victims of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by any party on or from Palestinian territory access to international justice and send a message that such crimes cannot be committed with impunity. Abbas is under pressure not to do so primarily from Israel and the United States. Some ICC member states, including the UK and France, have opposed such a move because, they say, it would undermine Israeli-Palestinian final status negotiations.

“The argument that Palestine should forego the ICC because it would harm peace talks rings hollow when 20 years of talks have brought neither peace nor justice to victims of war crimes,” said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch. “People who want to end the lack of accountability in Palestine and deter future abuse should urge President Abbas to seek access to the ICC.”

The ICC’s jurisdiction would cover serious crimes under international law committed on or from Palestinian territory, such as torture and indiscriminate attacks on civilians, whether committed by Palestinian authorities or armed groups or the Israeli military.

The ICC’s statute also classifies as a war crime the “direct or indirect” transfer of civilians by an occupying power into occupied territory – a category that would include the Israeli government’s facilitation of the transfer of its citizens into settlements. Another war crime under the statute is the “forcible transfer” of protected people in an occupied territory – in this case Palestinians – off their lands, such as by demolishing their homes and preventing them from returning.

Since Benjamin Netanyahu became Israel’s prime minister in 2009, Israel has begun construction on more than 9,480 settlement homes. Israeli demolitions during the same period left more than 4,600 Palestinians homeless. Both trends accelerated in 2013: 2,534 settlement housing starts in 2013 represented an increase of more than 220 percent over 2012, and demolitions that left 1,103 Palestinians homeless were up by almost 25 percent.
In February 2014, the International Committee for the Red Cross stopped delivering emergency shelters to Palestinians in the Jordan Valley, whose homes the Israeli military had demolished, because the Israeli military repeatedly confiscated or demolished the shelters.

Palestine could request the ICC’s jurisdiction by acceding to the court’s Rome Statute, in which case the court could exercise jurisdiction after the accession took effect. In addition, Palestine could submit a declaration accepting the court’s jurisdiction starting from any date since the ICC treaty entered into force in 2002.

Palestinian officials submitted a declaration recognizing the ICC’s jurisdiction in January 2009, but the Office of the Prosecutor later determined that the declaration “was not validly lodged” because of Palestine’s unclear status as a state at the time. Now that the UN General Assembly has upgraded Palestine to non-member state observer status, in November 2012, the ICC prosecutor has said that “the ball is now in the court of Palestine” to seek the ICC’s jurisdiction.

Abbas had pledged not to seek the ICC’s jurisdiction over Palestinian territory during nine months of US-brokered final status negotiations with Israel, which ended on April 29. On April 2, Palestine acceded to 20 international treaties and conventions, most relating to human rights and the laws of war, but not the ICC statute. In a vote on April 27, the Palestine Liberation Organization’s central council approved a list of dozens of other international treaties and bodies for future Palestinian accession, including the ICC, the Wall Street Journal reported.

“The US, Israel and others who are pressuring Palestine not to seek the ICC’s jurisdiction cannot credibly argue that continued impunity for serious international crimes will help bring the conflict to an end,” Stork said. “We call on Abbas to go to the ICC precisely because giving it a mandate in Palestine would send a much-needed message that grave crimes will have serious consequences.”

The letter was signed by:
Addameer Prisoner Support and Human Rights Association
Al Dameer Association for Human Rights
Al-Haq
Al Mezan Center for Human Rights
Al-Quds University Human Rights Clinic

Amnesty International
Badil Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights
Defense for Children International – Palestine
Ensan Center for Human Rights and Democracy
Human Rights Watch
Hurriyat Centre for Defense of Liberties and Civil Rights

International Commission of Jurists
International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH)Jerusalem Legal Aid and Human Rights Center
Palestinian Center for Human Rights
Ramallah Center for Human Rights Studies
Women’s Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling

ThePeoplePleaser · 20/07/2014 21:06

Quivering there are no words to be honest. You keep digging yourself a hole love.

LouiseBrooks · 20/07/2014 21:11

Please do tell me if you think I'm wrong

Honeybadger, I think you are wrong. Look at what's happening and has happened in the world in recent times - Syria, Isis, Darfur, Zimbabwe, etc. We didn't bomb them. (and if we had or did, we can't guarantee innocent children won't die so then aren't we as bad?)

Governments are not ignoring this because it's Israel. They're ignoring it, frankly, in the same way that they ignored all of the above, and they ignored what the Nazis were doing during the Holocaust (not just to the Jews of course) which our Governments had a pretty good idea about - for the simple reason that they don't give a shit. Full stop.

Quivering · 20/07/2014 21:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wordsmithsforever · 20/07/2014 21:37

Quivering - I understand that you are told that "they are being killed because their homes are used to store weapons or for other military purposes" but I'm sorry I do not believe this to be true.

Please watch this video at

The Israeli military described this incident as a "blunder" but if you read other articles on this awful incident, you will see that previously the doctor had a narrow escape and tanks were called off then thanks to a phone call to Israeli press friends - is the IDF saying that was a blunder too? (Sorry, I can't find the article but will try to and post it later.)

I'm sorry to say that I believe the attacks are more often than not fairly random and that in this particular case, the narrative was changed afterwards - to be a military blunder - because the IDF knew many members of the Israeli public could not support a well loved doctor like this being targeted when clearly he was not storing weapons.

Fakebook · 20/07/2014 21:42

No quivering, it's not on balance, because there is something very unnerving and goady about showing a bunch of Israeli children stating they will kill Arabs and invade Lebanon. That's a very open statement from Israel about the future. Also, at the end of this, how many Jews have actually been killed? 1? 2?
When these air strikes started the Israeli army chose the time 11.30am. This is the time when the school children exchange. The morning classes go home and afternoon classes arrive. All the school children are on the streets at this time. They bombed at that exact time. It sickens me.

I've always boycotted Israeli goods in shops. Now I will be on extra high alert.

Wannabestepfordwife · 20/07/2014 21:42

peoplepleaser I know it's not a lot but I haven't prayed in a longtime but this week I have prayed for Gaza and tonight you and your family are in my prayers.

My MP is holding a surgery on the 23rd and after the atrocities of the past fortnight I am going to attend and make my disgust clear.

(Slightly on a tangent) I was watching Ross Kemp on Haiti tonight and it made me cry when they showed footage of people donating in Gaza and children holding up a sign saying "the children of Gaza support Haiti" it just touched me so much that the oppressed could still have such generosity of spirit and it is so wrong to imply that the average Palestinian is like Hamas.

wordsmithsforever · 20/07/2014 21:44

Ah ok, that video does explain the previous incident.

babbas · 20/07/2014 21:45

Quivering your good cop bad cop routine is bizarre and wearing thin. Don't send in ambulances to the dying, I want to connect with palestinian mothers, I don't want to see civilians bombed, their homes contain weapons, they are human shields and choose to stay, yes they should join the ICC and deserve justice.

It's disingenuous and wearing thin.

LouiseBrooks · 20/07/2014 21:53

Christ Wordsmith that's awful. And yet he says he doesn't hate and encourages the peace process. The problem is there aren't enough people on either side like him. What an extraordinary and amazing man.

justasecond · 20/07/2014 21:57

I am so sorry for what is happening to you and your family Peoplepleaser I pray that your suffering comes to an end and that the evil bastards that have done his face justice in this life and the hearafter.
I feel so helpless, I wish there was more we could all do.

wordsmithsforever · 20/07/2014 22:03

Louise, Izzeldin Abuelaish is an amazing man. I read about him some time ago and have been reading again in this last week. He gives me hope but honestly my heart breaks for him, especially when he was verbally attacked by that angry Israeli woman. Can you imagine? Like it's not enough his family has literally been blown apart, she has to do that too. Reminds me of the worst of the extremists back home here in SA where literally no amount of human suffering could touch them.

Quivering · 20/07/2014 22:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

somewheresafe · 20/07/2014 22:38

This letter by Dr gilbert has brought me to tears. What an inspiration he is. I am moved to tears by his words and have held my own children tight before putting them to bed:

www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/12920-letter-from-gaza-by-a-norwegian-doctor

ShineSmile · 20/07/2014 23:13

Message from amnesty international (says it all):

Late last night, tanks rolled into parts of Gaza as Israel stepped up Operation ‘Protective Edge’. Since the current military offensive began, at least 237 Palestinians have been killed, 52 of them children*.

A further 1,764 Palestinians have been injured, including 521 children. Thousands of homes have been destroyed, displacing some 33,500 people. Over half the population of Gaza is without water, compounding the misery of civilians already suffering due to the ongoing blockade.

With the ground invasion now under way, we expect the numbers of civilian casualties and the destruction of Gaza’s already crippled infrastructure to increase. It is vital we act now.

Call on the UK Government to halt arms sales to Israel

The Israeli army has been deliberately targeting civilian homes it says belong to families of ‘Hamas operatives’. In several cases, however, no evidence has emerged that ‘Hamas operatives’ were in the houses at the time, or that the homes were being used for military purposes.

Meanwhile, two Israelis have been killed and scores injured amid indiscriminate rocket fire by Palestinian armed groups.

Indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks against civilians are against international law. Yet there’s a risk arms from the UK are facilitating such war crimes.

Last year the UK sold £6.3 million-worth of arms to Israel. We know arms from the UK have been used to commit human rights violations in Gaza in the past. As long as there is a substantial risk they will be used to commit the violations we’re seeing now, all sales to Israel must stop. The same is true for those supplying Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups.

Call on the UK to stop all arms sales to Israel - don’t facilitate war crimes

ShineSmile · 20/07/2014 23:15

Quivering, where are the Gazans supposed to evacuate to? Israelis steal the land and then expect them to evacuate ... To where exactly?!

justasecond · 20/07/2014 23:24

stop arms to Israel petition
Please add your name to this petition

runes · 20/07/2014 23:27

epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62333
This is an e petition calling on Britain to stop all trade with Israel until the Palestinians stolen lands are returned to them. I've signed this and several others, and will be boycotting Israeli goods. The Palestinian Solidarity Campaign has a good open letter to the bbc and donations can be made from their website too. www.palestinecampaign.org/ Doesn't feel enough when children are dying now but I feel I have to do something Sad

Yruapita · 20/07/2014 23:30

peoplepleaser. I am so so sorry for your loss. I am at a loss as to what to say. We have cried for the Palestinians for years, yet nobody has granted them the justice they so much deserve. When they rise themselves, they get called terrorists. Well, no more!

Israel does not have a monopoly on victim status and suffering. Especially when it is the aggressor. It will be held to account one day. And that is what Netanyahu doesn not want.

The wonderful wonderful Dr Gilbert, his letter is soul destroying. I expected more from Obama. Sadly,he didnt deliver. As far as i am concerned, he could have stopped the genocide too. He is also culpable.

How can we all, collectively make a difference - shine, how can we make the government stop arms sales to Israel?