Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

Quivering no. I will not engage on that or any other justification you come up with, in the face of the horror and death being committed by the IDF against an innocent population. I'm finding the justifications in horrifically bad taste to be honest with you.
I've heard a lot from you about how Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Iran wants to destroy Israel. But I tell you now, actions speak louder than words, and the whole world can now see what those actions are, which is a caged, defenseless civilian population remorselessly bombarded and slaughtered by a powerful military force.
Shame on you and your justifications.

Well said Backinthering I couldn't agree more.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698878/Indiscriminate-bloodshed-continues-Gaza-20-Palestinians-killed-Israeli-shelling-hospitals-overflow-women-children.html

They look very pleased with themselves.

Totally agree Backin. I am sick of hearing about how Hamas wants to destroy Israel. Israel has not openly stated it but its intention is clearly the same, to destroy Palestinians, to wipe them off the face of the earth and increase their territory. Why else did he derail the unity of the Palestinian gov. He would have got his wish to get rid of Hamas.

he =bibi

Since 2000 there have been 8,166 conflict-related deaths, of which 7,065 are Palestinian and 1,101 Israeli. That means 87 percent of deaths have been Palestinian and only 13 percent Israeli. Put another way, for every 15 people killed in the conflict, 13 are Palestinian and two are Israeli. (Statistics for the past two months are from United Nations Office for the Coordinator of Humanitarian Affairs.)

And Israel justify the war because they need to protect their people !!

Very well said backinthering

There have been plenty of sources the most notable being Dr Madd Gilbert who has been on the ground dealing with the casualties confirming the IDF are using illegal experimental weapons called "DIME"

m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vkUI7EUFKU

Hopefully the link will work!

I don't know how this can be refuted by anyone!!!

The amazing Dr gilbert and his criticism of the use of dime and experimental weapons was mentioned earlier in the thread. Israel has really surpassed itself this time in terms of the horror it is inflicting.

John Kerry was caught on camera being sarcastic about the "pinpoint" Israeli operation. When confronted he looks like he is crapping himself at offending Israel. Why are world leaders scared of standing up to Israel?

Thanks Quivering. Regardless of the fact that far, far, fewer Israelis have died in recent years (and yes the majority of them soldiers), each one of the people on this list was loved by someone and families on both sides are in mourning. A life is a life and to the parent it doesn't matter if your child is 2 or 20. I just hope to God that this time the deaths won't be in vain, but I doubt it.

I am not quite as old as the state of Israel. My whole life I have seen death and destruction in that region. I've seen wars that no one thought Israel could win, the horrors of suicide bombing, the injustice of the settlements and the death of innocent civilians on both sides. Leaders on both sides constantly have missed (deliberately or not) the chance for peace.

I've seen on this thread how people can disagree and (wilfully or not) misunderstand each other to the degree where communication is breaking down. If we can't have a reasonable discussion, how on earth can the Israelis and the people of Gaza talk to each other?

I've been a supporter of Israel (and by that I mean the people, not the Government and especially not this particular Government) for many years and I'm horrified by what I'm seeing now. That doesn't mean I don't still support the right of the Israeli people to live in peace, or to live (more or less) where they live but I firmly believe that concessions have to be made. Equally Hamas and others have to accept that Israel does exist and it's not going away. Otherwise, nobody will live in peace.

The list of the dead is very very moving. I didn't think I would feel sympathy for the soldiers as they, in my opinion, have chosen to go and kill innocent civilians in their homes. For me there is a distinction between the deaths of an idf soldier and a family bombed as they sat under the shade of a tree.

However, reading the list has brought a tear to my eye for all those who died. Having family in Israel I know to what extend idf soldiers are brainwashed and some of them feel very torn. Let's hope there are no more casualties on either side.

let's please stop pretending that slaughtering unarmed, imprisoned refugee women and children is a 'complex' issue. it's not complex ffs. it's horrendous.

how anyone can want to justify such atrocities is beyond me (other than brainwashing and genuinely not seeing those lives as fully 'human').

400 people are dead.

an already fucking horrific living situation (trapped in an open air prison with near extinguished water sources, minimal infrastructure, power problems etc) has been made a million times worse by deliberately taking out remaining water sources, schools, hospitals, UN humanitarian centres etc.

what is fucking complex about that? really how desperate to you have to be to try to spin that into something other than what it is?

we are witnessing deliberate mass murdering of innocents, most of them women and children and people want to debate whether it's deserved or not?

some things in life are just right or wrong. murdering children i think is one of the easy ones to categorise. bombing UN humanitarian centres that are the only place for civilians to hide - again, simple!

international law people. forget if you can understand why so and so might feel such and such or whether if x does y then a might feel inclined to do z or oh but he did this and she did that.... international law. decisions made of what the world could agree was beyond consideration, too inhumane to happen EVEN in the inhumane context of war. human rights - the most BASIC agreements we could come to over what bare shred of dignity real living sentient beings should be afforded. walked all over and spat on essentially.

this isn't complex.

even if you give not a shit about the human beings or morality or humanity just look at the black and white legality if you prefer and even there it is utterly clear that war crimes are happening under our noses, we are subjected to seeing the images of it happen whilst world leaders turn the other way and make ridiculous statements about rights to defend oneself.

you can go to prison for killing someone who has you pinned to the floor raping you but apparently killing 400 civilians trapped in a prison is self defense.

it is utterly sickening.

you know forget even the nationalities or the religion or the skin colour or the history or any bloody thing. is it ok to murder 400 civilians trapped in a refugee camp?

is it ok to shoot down four children playing on a beach DELIBERATELY from the air?

is it ok to mow down people trying to flee with tanks and gun fire?

this is real human life being sacrificed like trash at the altar of politics, power and economics.

i don't care if you're israeli, palestinian, american or from bloody outer mongolia - you should be horrified and angry and disgusted that people wth power and money and military force are committing such acts and that other powerful, rich, military enabled leaders are looking the other way or offering support.

fuck the complexity - slaughtering people is wrong surely? taking high class military weapons designed for the war zone into residential areas and using them on civilians is WRONG surely????

what the fuck is there to argue about here?

Seeing people in sharjeya literally running for their lives with bodies lying all around is one of the most horrific things I've ever seen.

Why are they being killed? I don't understand. Do israel plan to go from neighbourhood to neighbourhood just killing them all? This is a holocaust in the full glare of the world.

baking i feel sorry for the soldiers too because i do not think any sane, healthy, empowered human being would be murdering women and children in their homes. they can only be doing it through having their humanity twisted by brainwashing and manipulation from birth - therefore they too are abused children used as pawns in a sick game that profits a few people sitting back with clean hands and reaping the profits.

somewhere this is what happens when the world boosts and boosts you with immunity to any international law. eventually presumably you really believe you are above and beyond any kind of censure.

to be doing this in front of the world is either an indication that you are so fucking hateful of the people you're doing it too that you assume the rest of the world is cheering you on OR you think you are so untouchable and powerful that you don't give a damn what they think.

i can see no 'third' explanation here other than a combo of the two.

they are murdering civilians live on tv. either they assume that we too loathe arabs as much as they do and are cheering with our wine coolers on hilltops or they genuinely believe they're the most powerful nation on earth and cannot be touched.

if this was iran, iraq, pakistan, wherever we would be airstriking them right now. please do tell me if you think i'm wrong.

AndHarry I haven't been able to find any authoritative sources on education about the conflict on both sides of the divide. I did find this article (via Google), though it is somewhat dated:

www.jweekly.com/article/full/17201/what-do-israeli-palestinian-texts-say-about-conflict/

I see that tonight AlJazeera are showing previously un-boradcast footage of John Kerry, apparently from a routine round of Sunday morning interviews on US TV, in which he appears to express some exasperation with Israel and admit that the IDF are not taking any special precautions to avoid civilian casualties. The remarks seem to have been made when he thought the cameras and microphones were not recording.

I'm back because I have to applaud Honeybadger on her understanding about what is going on in Gaza. My family would appreciate your passion and emotion, as well as others on here who have not been apologists for Israel, because right now it feels like nobody cares from the outside world. Our so called Muslim leaders are doing nothing and what can we do but sit and witness this thing that is nothing short of evil. I know perhaps many of you may not believe in God but I believe these people will be held to account for these atrocities and that is what keeps me going.

Yes it is the fact that they are committing this holocaust in the full glare of the world that is particularly horrifying. There is not one shred of remorse or guilt.

All we have from the idf, the government and the sickening apologists is cries of 'Hamas! Human shields! Complex! Self defence!'

I am raging. Instead I am roaring with rage that this is happening on my watch .