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Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

971 replies

AndHarry · 17/07/2014 11:50

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

OP posts:
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Numanoid · 20/07/2014 11:58

There will be a two hour humanitarian ceasefire this afternoon

Well isn't that nice of Israel, a whole 2 hours without constant attacks. They really are taking the mick now.

I love how the BBC reported the protest march in Glasgow as being attended by "hundreds" (luckily STV studios right beside them were also out and correctly reported at least 2000, which is true). Also saw how they estimated 15,000 in London, when apparently it was nearer 70,000.

I know many, many people are boycotting Israeli products and protesting the BBC's bias, hopefully this will persuade the UN to start putting sanctions on them.

Quivering · 20/07/2014 12:27

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flyawayaway · 20/07/2014 12:39

Oh it's sick to hope the IDF choke on their lunch?

Your sympathy for them is very touching.

Well I have not one single ounce of sympathy for these murderers. I hope in years to come they are hounded out of their European bolt holes and brought before war crimes tribunals just as the nazi soldiers were.

Quivering · 20/07/2014 12:43

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flyawayaway · 20/07/2014 12:51

You're most welcome. I am proud to say I am a jew who deplores the actions of israel.

You should be ashamed to be in support of them. I am horrified. Everyone I know is horrified. For you to be in support and then sympathise with them is horrific.

Poppet1974 · 20/07/2014 12:54

My local Sainsburys had protestors handing out leaflets telling people how to spot Israeli products ( barcode beginning 729) and urging people not to buy them. I for one will not be buying products from Israel again, it's my own personal way of protesting at the sick actions of Israel!

TheHoneyBadger · 20/07/2014 12:56

my god quivering you seem to get on very moral high ground about choices of language by a poster who is upset from seeing brutal murders of innocent civilians - so much less morality and outrage towards the deaths.

your 'little bit for peace' if you want to do it is to protest your own government and their actions and stand up and be counted as one of those who will not be silent and who says not in my name.

that's what people with moral courage are doing in israel.

flyawayaway · 20/07/2014 13:01

Instead of asking your contacts in the idf for proof that Hamas are to blame, contact them and register your outrage at the deaths of completely innocent people!

wordsmithsforever · 20/07/2014 13:08

Quivering: I have messaged the idf spokesperson asking where the residents of shuja iya were expected to evacuate to and proof for their cclaims that hamas ordered residents not to evacuate.

Well done! Thanks

wordsmithsforever · 20/07/2014 13:13

People pleaser I think you’ve gone but I want to add my most sincere condolences. I read your posts with tears.

After this terrible week, I have lost faith completely in the commitment of this current Israeli government to peace. To those in Israel who might have voted this current government in or support it (and to be honest, I can’t think of anyone on this thread who is relishing the deaths) I would like to say the following, with respect.

You might believe because you are Jewish that this government is your friend and protector. I believe you are wrong. As a child I was brought up to believe that the apartheid government was there to protect me, a white girl. In fact I was told that it was their very raison d’etre.

Let me tell you: I believe the moment you present any serious opposition (as opposed to writing the odd letter or a heated dinner party discussion) to their current policies you will feel their wrath. I can remember my shock the first time a riot policemen went for me with teargas and a sjambok (whip). You see, I’m afraid to say I genuinely thought that as a young white woman they wouldn’t hurt me– those years of propaganda had worked. I thought if I was at a nice peaceful protest, as a young white woman, I would be fine. I was wrong.

Please watch that Home front video (all 4 videos please!) and see how this current right wing Israeli state will treat anyone who seriously challenges them. They are not your friend. They do not want to lead you to peace. They will arrest you if necessary. They will physically hurt you ‘if they have to’. As many others have said, this is not a Jewish thing.

About the Hamas rockets which seem such a sticking point (and a propaganda tool for the IDF) I would like to say the following:
When we were approaching peace in SA, many people on both sides wanted to derail it. During the run up to the first democratic elections, the Azanian People’s Liberation Army (Apla) went into full swing, with many attacks aimed at white people. (Such is the nature of our society, like conjoined twins, they usually managed to hurt black people too which they saw as collateral damage.) Their slogan was “one settler, one bullet” (and by settler, they meant people who had been in SA for 400 years) and they then made a policy decision to focus in particular on killing white children to “hurt the whites where it would most hurt”.

But during this time Nelson Mandela and FW de Klerk didn’t waver from the peace process, under immense pressure, especially FW de Klerk who was vilified by many of his people as well as the rest of the world – poor guy.

What I’m saying is that many people will tell you: we cannot start peace talks until Hamas stops firing rockets. I’m saying this is not true. However painful, you can and should start talks now but the IDF has to stop its military campaign. I can hear you say how unfair this is - why am I saying the IDF should stop when Hamas needn’t? All I can say is I know the peace process would not have succeeded if white SA had been systematically bombing the townships like this and still calling for ‘peace’. To stop the cycle someone has to stop killing and really it needs to be the more powerful party. For sure the IDF should do all it can to prevent the attacks and thank God for the iron dome, but it needs to stop its large scale killing.

The Apla attacks did kill whites but they were isolated, clustered incidents (which to be clear I certainly did not support – I am not any self-loathing hater of whites). I truly believe a massive retaliation like we’re seeing now, sponsored by a powerful nuclear armed state like SA would have killed our peace process – unfair? Yes probably but that was how it worked.

This is an essay but one more thing: worst of all, remember – the IDF might, right now, be killing your own future Nelson Mandela – the one who could truly lead you to peace.

If anyone gets to this point, Thanks for indulging my opinion!

PigletJohn · 20/07/2014 13:19

good luck with that.

Poppet1974 · 20/07/2014 13:21

Fantastic post Words

wordsmithsforever · 20/07/2014 13:24

By the way, to those who are slamming Quivering and saying she should get out there and protest today: generally these things need small steps before clarity sets in - sorry Quivering that sounds truly patronising and I don't mean it to be at all.

I admire Quivering for staying on this thread - other people have just dumped a quick pro-IDF link and run. What she's doing right now takes courage, including emailing the IDF.

And none of this mitigates how absolutely disgusting the current killings are.

I'm going to bugger off now before I take up the whole second thread.

PigletJohn · 20/07/2014 13:25

did anyone hear the BBC news correspondent this morning, interviewing on the Israeli side, who spoke to Israelis sitting on a restaurant terrace, watching the bombs and shells fall on Gaza, by way of entertainment?

"Listen Again" seems not to be working at the moment.

babbas · 20/07/2014 13:29

I didn't see that piglet. But I have family in Israel and they have spent the last week sat on beaches, attended a family wedding and redecorated their spare room bomb shelter. They have also protested in tel aviv against the genocide and been spat on by the idf.

Quivering, good luck with getting any proof from the idf. You might be looking at this from completely the wrong angle as others have suggested.

edamsavestheday · 20/07/2014 13:31

Wordsmith, your posts on this thread are very wise and very moving. The comparison with apartheid S Africa is very informative and relevant. Thank you.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 20/07/2014 13:45

You have put me off approaching 'bridge building' groups because of your attitude

Please don't give up, Quivering - as Wordsmith so rightly suggested, small steps are valuable and can often produce something really worthwhile

Of course we're all devastated about the killing, rocketing and all the rest (at least we should be) but I honestly don't believe the screamers and spitters in the area will get us anywhere; somehow we've got to find a way of moving beyond this, and as with your query to IDF, the ordinary folk might just be the ones to do it in the end

Quivering · 20/07/2014 13:53

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panachronic · 20/07/2014 13:58

That's disgusting Quivering - where do you live??

Backinthering · 20/07/2014 13:59

Quivering this is not all about you.

babbas · 20/07/2014 14:13

That's terrible.

I thought Jewish extremists went on the rampage in Paris and assaulted protestors and caused havoc?

TheHoneyBadger · 20/07/2014 14:13

nope. imagine if those chants were being made by soldiers in tanks, chasing you down and shooting you as you tried to run away.

chibi · 20/07/2014 14:18

i am appalled by the murder of civillians in gaza

i believe that israel is a settler colonial state, and cannot exist in its current form any longer if there is to be justice, or peace

having said all that, i am Hmm at posters who are attacking quivering as though she herself were Likud personified, or giving orders to the IDF, or personally pushing the button that drops the bombs

i am assuming that many of these posters are in europe- would you like to be held personally responsible for your nations' crimes, historic and present day, upon which their wealth and status depend?

you would be hard pressed to find a single european nation (western europe certainly) who was not positively blood soaked and gorged on gore through its own settler colonial exploits

let me know if you want calling to account as you are doing with quivering; i am well versed on your evils on my home continent and elsewhere, and can be both thorough and merciless in holding you responsible for them, being as you here directly benefit from them

Quivering · 20/07/2014 14:22

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Quivering · 20/07/2014 14:24

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