Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

yes i know sorrel - but i think there is a distinction between an ethnic jew and a follower of judaism. my point was that israel is about ethnicity rather than religion. now that is clearly apartheid isn't it? to privilege one ethnic group over another and give legal rights to one denied to the other, access to services and areas and facilities etc to one and not the other? etc.

i notice when you hear people speak on those videos they talk of jews and arabs -- again making clear this is ethnicity not religion we are dealing with i guess.

i think people in the west get muddled and think this is a religious thing - jews and muslims and about religion when it's not.

much as NI wasn't really about religion but about pro and anti british occupation and the pro just happened to be protestants whereas the against were irish catholics.

they weren't fighting about their religion - it was politics that religious afiliations happened to align with.

i think for some reason it's almost advantageous for governments to present things as religious conflicts because then it puts the blame on the people, as if they are silly children fighting over their gods and to disguise the real solid geopolitics and state initiated causes of these kind of conflicts and denies the power of state and politics to resolve it.

sorry that was a bit garbled and apologies if it is off topic.

it's about territory and land.

yep

Absolutely piglet. It's about land and the article above by Schlaim is very accurate. Especially when he states that land grabbing amd peace making are not compatible. That is why I also agree that someone sympathetic regime cannot genuinely reach out to the palestinians as quivering suggested. The mindset for wanting peace has to be there first and this inherently means that Israel must stop abusing and oppressing the palestinians.

There is no amount of spin that can convince normal folk that Israel with all its power and resources and weaponry is in any way a victim. I am Jewish and I know many many Jews who have come to realise that Israel is committing atrocities against the palestinians akin to those our ancestors faced in ww2.

Great article janine. Thanks for the link.

I have lost all respect for Obama. His Iftar invite to American muslims was like a sick joke.

www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605774

The way that the world has treated the Palestinians, I wouldn't be surprised if they resort to desperate measures.

Obama should be ashamed of himself.

there is always such hunger for war. none of these things are about religion or justice or peace or 'people'. they are about big powers with an obsession with wars and 99.999999% of us just don't come into it in the slightest and they couldn't give a toss how many of us are 'collatoral damage' to their power games.

Gaza Ahmed Yassin Over Zionists - Against Israel:

Also in light of the discussion about this not being about a religious war this is a powerful speech by one the leaders of hamas. He reiterates that Hamas are not waging war with the Jews but with those who stole their land.

I agree Sorrel - I know plenty of Jewish people who aren't in the least religious.

it's ben going on for a very long time.

If hated Israel, would we be surprised?

thehoneybadger - where has Quivering said she supports the murdering of children? See her post of Fri 18-Jul-14 14:33:48. Has she said, "I think what the Israeli army is doing is great. I don't care if they kill lots of civilians." She has also said she supports open borders, but is scared of a return to suicide bombings.

I do not agree with what the Israeli army is doing in Gaza. I apologise for not having yet watched the videos, but I have never once said that I agree with the occupation. I would happily see a binational state created in which both Jewish and Palestinian people could live side by side, or a two-state solution - or a two-state solution with free movement of people between both states (a bit like the EU member states). And, as AndHarry said, most world leaders endorsed Israel's actions, at least at the start of the conflict, so I feel it is important to try and understand other views, if we are to change things for the better. I admit I was fairly ignorant about the Middle East before the second intifada started in 2000. Since then, I have tried to read widely on the history of the conflict. Rather depressingly the situation has only got worse over the years.

cleanmean: well, perhaps it would be better to wait until a ceasefire has been announced, if that happens. But if Israelis who want to reach out are rebuffed, what hope is there for the future? For example, the Parents' Circle brings together bereaved Israeli and Palestinian families. I doubt that the parents are always singing from the same hymnsheet politically, but they can share the common experience of grief and get an insight into what it is like to live on the "other side". If nothing else I think initiatives to get Israelis and Palestinians talking might help see each other as human, even if they just talked about non-political topics.

Piglet that video is harrowing. There are very many former IDF soldiers who have spoken out about the brutality they inflicted on innocent palestinians.

Not only have they been evicted en masse into an Israeli prison but they are subjected to daily brutality. Can I ask any supporters of Israel why the muslim palestinians have been banned from entering one of their holiest sites the al aqsa mosque? Apart from showing it's complete inhumanity what does Israel hope to achieve ?

There have been many comments on these two threads that Palestinian violence is justified / understandable because Israel is said to have grabbed their land, committed acts of oppression on desperate people and much more of the same; the implication seems to be that Israel are almost solely responsible for the continuing dreadful violence

Given that Hamas' aims include the complete obliteration of Israel - as clearly stated in their Charter - doesn't this suggest at the very least that "mindset change" isn't just required for the Israelis??

I'm ashamed to say I watched about 20 seconds of Piglet's video and just couldn't face anymore. I have no words.

I've just broken my own unwritten rule never to engage in spats on facebook but my bible-based Christian friend has just posted a sort of, "Yay, go Israel's Defence Force!" post on her page and I just couldn't contain myself.

I was shamed into commenting by the Jewish man on the Home Front video who said something like, "Bad things happen when good people do nothing". It's true.

the first 20 seconds are not the worst.

Just to be clear, when peace talks happen one day, I will be the first person shouting loud to make sure Jewish and women's human rights are protected, as well as Christians, Arabs and Palestinians.

I understand Israeli fears - I completely get that there are Arabs out there who want Israel and Jewish people wiped off the face of the earth but you can't attack an entire population for that reason.

Maybe it's just as simple as two wrongs don't make a right.

When those three poor Israeli boys were kidnapped and murdered, the correct response would have been to track down the killers, arrest them and put them on trial, not collectively punish an entire population like this.

Oh God Piglet

Puzzled, to use your words - Israel are solely responsible for the continued violence. They have invaded by ground air and sea. If they withdrew Hamas would probably keep firing rockets which would be interceded by the iron dome and there would be no more casualties. They are attacking a refugee camp. But of course, I suppose you think the Palestinians aren't allowed to resist occupation?

but that would be acting legally wordsmith. sadly israel show utter contempt for the law.

I completely get that there are Arabs out there who want Israel and Jewish people wiped off the face of the earth but you can't attack an entire population for that reason

Sorry, pressed too soon I fully agree with you about not attacking an entire popultion - I'm simply intrigued as to why there are so few suggestions on here that Hamas might stop calling for exactly that, in their insistence that another state should be obliterated

Puzzled: Given that Hamas' aims include the complete obliteration of Israel - as clearly stated in their Charter - doesn't this suggest at the very least that "mindset change" isn't just required for the Israelis??

Yes Puzzled I agree. The trouble is, bombing and killing Palestinians civilians is not going to encourage a mindset change. When I think of it now, the Afrikaners were actually very clever, in that they completely dismantled apartheid, except for the right to vote, before the 1994 general election over some time. All that created a huge amount of goodwill towards white people as black people gradually realised they were serious about peace and democracy. This encouraged a mindset change amongst black people.

I wish the Israeli government would do the same. The trouble is whilst I know the Israeli people want peace I'm not sure all their leaders do - I think they want maximum land as is clear from those Home Front videos.

I absolutely think Hamas should stop calling for the obliteration of all Jews (at least those Hamas leaders who are doing that) but I don't think this should stop a peace process. This is why I think this needs a grassroots solution. During our own peace process, we had plenty of people on both sides who tried to derail it, you just have to ignore them.