Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

Jews Against Genocide have very poignantly held a memorial service for murdered palestinian children outside the israeli embassy in tel aviv and around the world.

It's wonderful to hear about news like this. And highlights the importance of acknowledging that not everyone in Israel supports what the government and IDF are doing.

Sam "demands, including a deliberately ridiculous one that the Gazans should be able to go to Jlem"

From Sam's perspective, it is ridiculous that some Palestinians should be permitted to go to one of their towns which has been occupied and annexed by a foreign power.

Jews Against Genocide should be applauded for making a very moving stand.

Death count close to 310 now. Seems Israel is intent on rocketing up the body count.

As tariq khdeir, the American palestinian who was attacked when his cousin was burned alive, left Gaza to return to America the IDF ransacked his home and arrested his cousins and uncles. No evidence, no charges just arrests.

Thank god for the protests worldwide which are ongoing. Shame on France for banning pro palestine marches.

Another story to bring light into this darkest of stories is the one of Dr gilbert from Norway who once again has dropped everything to travel to Gaza and operate on the casualties and condemn the actions of israel.

I wonder how many more palestinians lives Israel will take before its thirst for blood is satiated? And it has yet to find even a single tunnel of the hundreds it went in to find. Evil despicable merciless regime.

Piglet John - the Israel apologists find it ridiculous that palestinians want to return to THEIR homes, to be free, to want their children to live, to want sanitation, water, hospitals and life saving treatment, food etc.

There are reports from.al jazeera that the air force is now targeting ambulances carrying casualties and hospitals to ensure they finish off the work of the ground troops. Quite a tag team of ground attack, air attacks and bombs by sea. Bravo Israel, let all the despots and murderers around the world look to you to learn how to pulverised a nation to death.

Hello All

Does anyone know the details of the next pro Palestine march in London?

Israel's actions make sense if you believe that killing people will make their friends, family and neighbours become friendly and peacable.

If, however, you believe that killing people, bulldozing their family olive and vine groves, blowing up their homes, dispossessing them, annexing their land or breaking their legs by dropping boulders on them, are all actions likely to create resentment and hatred, leading to future violence, then they are insane.

Piglet this point was raised in the first thread. Why is Israel doing everything it can to make the world despise it? The answer seemed to be that given the financial and moral support it receives from world leaders it has no need for support from people.

In its bloodiest day yet Israel killed 12 children yesterday.

There is a demo at downing street today from 12 pm.

Found it.

stopwar.org.uk/events/national-gaza-demonstration-saturday-19-july-stop-the-killing-stop-the-bombing#.U8oenstwZP8

Thank you piglet

I mean cleanmean.

Sorry to early for me.

All these little lights of hope are the key to challenging the hatred (on both sides) and on a practical level stopping the deaths. The memorial service is great to hear about.

Quivering your plan: "I'd like to get to know a young palestinian mother interested in peace. If anyone knows how I could go about getting I touch please let me know."

Such a great idea. Why don't you get in touch with someone at jewishvoiceforpeace.org/ and maybe they could help.

If every single Israeli and Palestinian could link up in this way, it would be very difficult to continue the killing. It's only when suffering has a human face that people understand what it really is. Leaders love to build on fear of the other group - and I'm saying this happens for sure on both sides of the Israeli-Palestine divide.

I don't believe any group of human beings is inherently evil. That's why if you want to convince one group to kill another group, you have to convince your electorate that they need to be fearful - that way they'll be able to stomach the killings.

Suggestions like yours, Quivering, can cut to the very chase of this because when ordinary people get to know one another they will realise that we are all just human beings - not terrorists and soldiers.

There's also Seeds of Peace. They might have some alumni who are now mothers.

someone said: Jews think of themselves as a superior ethnic group and act collectively in their own interest. That sounds like slating Judaism to me.

no. i'm saying that in israel jews are treated as a class - as in they have legal rights, privileges and freedoms that others do not have. much like whites in south africa were a class. i'm talking about an apartheid system whereby if you have the right badge (in israels case being an ethnic jew, in s.africa's case being white) you have freedom and the protection of the law and privileges of that class, whereas if you are not of that badge you do not.

i'm giving the benefit of the doubt here that you didn't just deliberately lie and twist what i said. and the sabbath business was mentioned because israel calls itself a jewish state but does not follow jewish law. this is not about 'jewish people' or even all israelis but about the state and it's actions and the people who support it's actions.

i couldn't have made it clearer throughout this thread that this is not about judaism for me and ive made several links to jewish groups against israel's regime.

and it's not, 'if you're a non practicing jew you're not a true jew', but i do struggle to think that if you do not follow the most fundamental laws of a religion or believe in the importance of them it's hard to call yourself by that religions name.

i'm talking orthodox or reformist or goes to synagogue or not here - i'm talking gun ho slaughtering of women and children or not.

sorry that should say i'm NOT talking about orthodox or not.

oh and i've just remembered the other snark about hamas won't fire on friday - i haven't brushed up on the finer details of islamic law regarding friday. it never seemed as strict as the jewish sabbath, mostly just meant all the shops were shut for a couple of hours in the afternoon whilst people went to mosque but things resumed after. i don't think it is required to put off all activity in the same way as in islam, much as christians don't commonly see it as more than a day to go to church.

the sabbath as a holy requirement is most emphasised in judaism. it was part of a very special contract between god and his 'chosen people' and there were very clear instructions for it's observance.

so oranges and apples iyswim.

Quivering - regarding your wish to meet a 'young Palestinian mother' who wants peace, I think you would radically have to alter your mindset before doing this. From reading your posts it is clear that you support Israel and it's self proclaimed 'self defence' although I note that you are appalled at the palestinian deaths.

If I was a palestinian mother I would find it very difficult to have someone sympathetic with the regime try and reach out and offer condolences. I am not saying this to upset you, in the past I have been involved with initiatives which bring jews and palestinians together and campaign for the freedom in Palestine. From experience these initiatives worked best when it involved people on both sides who genuinely wanted freedom for palestine and peace in the region. It would not work if you insist on being an apologist and in favour of restrictions and sanctions against those palestinian mothers you want to reach out to .

The sentiment is great and I wish you well but I hope you will consider that peace can only be achieved when palestinians have freedom equality and basic human rights.

i would say a good starting point would be to go visit palestinian areas. did you watch the series of four videos called, 'home front', that someone linked to here? that is a good one to watch to get a sense of the process of finding out more and going beyond the propaganda in small steps.

Here is the link again to the 4 Home Front videos - see www.justvision.org/homefront

cleanmean: if only the people who are on the same page to begin with meet will that help change things? Would it be a case of preaching to the converted? It could be that people might change their views only after meeting someone from the "other side". We are talking here about two moderate people meeting, not two extreme right-wingers. Having said that, there is a group called Combatants for Peace and surely if they can talk or meet anyone can?

thehoneybadger I think Israelis (unless they also hold another passport) are restricted in which areas in the West Bank they can visit - it's divided into zones and Israelis can't go into Zone A - or something like that; I can't remember exactly - so that may be easier said than done. Ironically it is often the settlers in the West Bank who have more contact with Palestinians than do ordinary Israelis. (Ordinary Israelis may have Israeli Arab friends but are less likely to know people in the West Bank or Gaza I think).

Forgive me but I don't think someone who aligns themselves with the israeli army is moderate.

I agree that it would be useful to have people from different sides meeting, but from experience and especially given the current genocide now would not be the right time to reach out to Palestinians unless you understood their fight for freedom. In my experience it is very very rare for Israel supporters to want to reach out to palestinian mothers. The fact that quivering does want to reach out is very positive as maybe it means that she is seeing past the propaganda. Like I said I don't want to upset anyone I'm just sharing my experience of being part of bridging initiatives.

no i agree, you can't align yourself with the murdering of children and claim you are 'moderate'.

and i don't think it was suggested they'd have to be reading from the same songsheet but some work would have to first going into finding out more, exposing yourself to things, beginning to at least have question marks where once you had definitive exclamation marks.

halfdrunk - i'd really suggest you watch those videos.

Interesting video and an interesting article showing two very different points of view.

The article has already been linked to on this thread but I think the sources are good to consider side-by-side.

TheHoneyBadger: but i do struggle to think that if you do not follow the most fundamental laws of a religion or believe in the importance of them it's hard to call yourself by that religions name

Wiki says:
An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background. Examples of ethnic groups defined by ancestral religions are the Jews, the Assyrians, the Armenians, the Druze of the Levant, the Copts of Egypt, the Yazidi of northern Iraq, the Zoroastrians of Iran and India, and the Serer of Senegal, the Gambia, and Mauritania.

I wouldn't consider myself to be religious but I definitely consider myself to be Jewish.

Sorry to digress. I am reading the thread with great interest.

Article by Avi Shlaim, which pulls no punches. He was once a Zionist and IDF member, now a much maligned Revisionist critic of Israeli policy.