Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

I tried to watch the video, but it tells me to sign in first - i need to get that sorted. I can only imagine that unimaginable brutality has been displayed.

For those who ask why Israel gets singled out, here is a good article:

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/07/we-single-israel-out-because-we-west-are-shamefully-complicit-its-crimes

Israel keeps scaring its people into believing that all Arabs want to wipe out the Israelis. There are groups that possibly do, many will be those who have suffered and suffered immense injustice and torture, both physical and emotional, under Israeli occupation. There will also be many who dont want to kill. They just want freedom too.

Also, note how Israel would rather keep Hamas than say Al-Qaeda or ISIS take hold. Because then Israel really would have much more to worry about.

The fact that the Western leaders condone Israel's behaviour, also make them complicit in crimes against humanity. It leaves oppressed people at the mercy of the evil and oppressor. A backlash will always occur at some point. Wipe out oppression, 'terrorism' will not gain a foothold.

at this point in time i would imagine they cannot imagine a situation in which israel could exist and not still be murdering and oppressing arabs. if we reached a point ever where israel was not murdering and oppressing arabs then that mindset could begin to change. until that point of course it can't change - when you can see your people being slaughtered mercilessly and have watched it for decades how much faith would you have that they were ever going to stop?

interesting post crescentmoon. i was unaware that that agreement had been taking place.

what an utter waste of life this is.

I think the figure is now around 300 palestinian deaths. Mostly children and women.

Puzzled I agree that mindsets have to change but as piglet John and others have pointed out how can the palestinians even begin to change their minds er when they are being persecuted so ruthlessly? It is too much to ask at this time when the cruelty and oppression has reached fever pitch. There are reports from Gaza today that the land, sea and air attacks are everywhere. No one is safe. This is illegal and Israel as the oppressor is the one who needs to step down.

The truth is Israel have spent decades ensuring that the palestinians have been subjugated and destroyed and to expect palestinians now to change mindsets will be difficult. The first step on the road to changing mindsets is for Israel to stop the genocide, then Hamas should be forced to stop firing rockets. If Israel atones in some way (how can they atone for obliterating generations of palestinians?!) And is held accountable for war crimes then maybe palestinians will begin to believe that their nightmare is coming to am end.

It seems to me - as it always has - that there's a great deal of fault on both sides here; actually I hate using that word "sides" but am doing it simply for brevity, not with any ill intent

Palestinians consider themselves oppressed by Israel's actions, Israelis believe Hamas's stated aim to obliterate them to be sincere, everyone thinks "the other side" should be the ones to call a halt first and as usual the politicians muddy everything

Personally I agree with Wordsmith; a grassroots solution could well be the only answer to the whole thing ...

Do you really mean palestinians 'consider' themselves oppressed by israel as in, its subjective? all in their minds?

No, not at all - I completely appreciate that for everyone involved the awful things which are happening are very real

It's simply that for me, this isn't as one-sided or straightforward as each group like to claim it is

Puzzled I think that was really badly worded on your part. Not even Israel denies it is oppressing and killing palestinians (citing self defence as the reason).

A grassroots solution won't resolve the situation, it can change mindsets but the only resolution is for Israel to stop land grabbing and allow palestinians basic human rights. This will happen, israel is on borrowed time. Like south Africa and america, israel will have to relinquish control and stop killing a whole race of people. It will be hard for Israel to give up its zionist colonialised ideology but if south Africa can do it so can they.

I would be interested in hearing the Pro-Israeli reaction to my earlier comment that Likud is a party which was founded by a terrorist. Do they agree or disagree?

Begin and the rest of Stern / Irgun took organised and carried out mass killings and bombings - except that he was viewed by many hardline Israelis as a freedom fighter. This was when Israel was founded in the late 1940s.How do people see a significant difference between these actions and the actions of Hamas, out of interest?

I also said right at the beginning of the other thread that Bibi has no right to be the Israeli leader. His brother was killed by the PLO so how on earth can he be expected to hold any kind of balanced political perspective? of course he hates the Palestinians. He denounced Yitzhak Rabin as a traitor when the former leader was negotiating peace with Arafat in the 90s. Many people view him (Bibi) as having played a significant part in inciting the Zionist hatred which led to Rabin's assassination.

And then there is the delightful Miss Shaked, Knesset member and hardline racist who describes Palestinians as 'snakes' and calls for them to burn in hell.

The situation is unsustainable though. For everyone. It's a one state solution, IMO, or bust.

Very good Parliament clip crescent moon thank you! It's great to see these MPs asking these questions especially:

"When will our government apply pressure on Israel to adhere to international law?"

Good question! This is what every British citizen should be asking.

Sick of namby pamby statements saying Israel has a right to defend itself when that defence is so utterly disproportionate.

There was a fantastic analogy on twitter last week by a journalist. It was something along the lines of this: Israel citing self defence is like a rapist complaining that he has been slapped by the victim.

It's really badly put by me but along the lines of that.

Puzzled I think that was really badly worded on your part. Not even Israel denies it is oppressing and killing palestinians (citing self defence as the reason)

If it was then I apologise, although if you read my post again carefully you'll see that I've not denied anything. In saying that the various groups "consider" or "believe" something, my intention was to recognise their views but avoid passing judgement one way or another, something I'm neither qualified nor entitled to do

I will, however, reiterate my own view that there's fault on all sides and that the situation is more complex than some acknowledge

Excellent video crescent. I do like Jack Straw. And William Hague as it happens, although I don't agree with the government lines he was trotting out. It will be interesting to see what he has to say when he gets round to writing his autobiography.

What is the fault of the palestinians other than resistance? Yes they have committed terrible acts of resistance but other than resistance where is their fault puzzled? They have been systematically removed from their homes and denied even the most basic human rights.

The fault lies largely if nor wholly with Israel. Over 100,000 are marching through London today to denounce Israel. Many of them jews. Israel is fast losing the sympathy of the world which it has formerly enjoyed by presenting the palestinians as suicide bombing savages.

This article by Lawrence weschler, well known Jewish writer, sums up accurately.
mondoweiss.net/2014/07/concentration-delusion-recognize.html

I've been lurking on this thread for a while, a very valuable discussion on a subject I've taken some interest in. I'm not sure there is anything much I can add over what has been already said, and don't wish to intrude, but I did find this article quite interesting:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/as-a-child-growing-up-in-israel-i-saw-how-palestinians-became-increasingly-dehumanised-9612032.html

flyaway fault lies with the Palestinians for the following:

• aiming rockets at civilian targets like a nursery;
• Hamas refusing to change its charter, which would make a huge psychological difference, despite its leaders seeming to be rather embarrassed by it and Yasser Arafat promising to take out the bit about destroying Israel;
• Hamas diverting foreign aid away from humanitarian purposes to fund its military wing;
• Hamas encouraging civilians to stay put rather than evacuate homes due to be bombed;
• Hamas glorifying the 'martyrdom' of babies, children, the elderly and others unable to run from bombs;
• using summer camps and school to teach a message of hatred towards Israelis.

I don't think what Israel is doing is right. Neither though are Hamas absolved from blame.

Just to give an update if anyone is interested - I attended the demo in Glasgow today to support Gaza. Fantastic turnout despite the heavy rain. I feel it's important to say that there was no hint whatever of anti-semitism during the protest, which I know people such as Quivering had asked about/expressed concern about. In fact, one of the speakers was Jewish and very warmly applauded.

So those points are untrue?