Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

There is nothing remotely paranoid about not wanting a comet to strike your garden shed either. But yakking on and on about it on the internet as if it's really, really going to happen, and could happen any minute, makes it look as if you have some sort of unjustified preoccupation with the possibility.

A democratically elected government of Ukraine was forced from power by a US-backed revolt using armed force on the part of Ukrainian right wing militias: when you say 'the US' and discuss its role in pushing the revolution and hand picking the successor administration, you are talking about NATO, whose member states, foremost among them the US, are now running Ukraine. There is no NATO without the US, and there would have been no revolution in Kiev without the US.

my garden shed has not been hit by a comet. I have never seen a garden shed hit by a comet, and I have never been in a garden shed which subsequent, during or before my visit had been hit by a comet. I have however been in quite a number of European countries which have been invaded and occupied.

The proportion of European countries which, subsequent to WW2, have been invaded and occupied by Russia, and prior to that, the Soviet Union which Putin seeks to recreate, is far far far greater than the proportion of garden sheds that have been hit by comets.

At this very moment, a European country in being invaded by Russian forces.

A more serious and pressing problem than my garden shed.

Maybe you should be worried about comets, and meteorites too.. There are a lot more impact sites worldwide than you might imagine.

I actually think you should be more concerned about German occupation of European countries than you appear to be, given the propensity of Germany to invade and occupy other countries, murder their inhabitants in brutal and comprehensive fashion, pillage, destroy, and not once but twice in the last century. Did you do history in school?

Or did you concentrate on creative writing? -- 'the Soviet Union which Putin seeks to recreate' is a fiction you seem determined to believe, for some reason.

In the very recent past, a democratically elected European government was brought down by a foreign power using locally based fascist agents to do its dirty work, and a hand-picked local tool was placed in power by the same foreign power.

I think Europe should take note and file under 'pressing problems', perhaps in the cabinet marked 'American aggression' or the one marked 'Illegal and unconscionable American interference in the affairs of sovereign states'.

Are you suggesting that it is OK for Russia to invade and occupy European countries by military force?

Are you suggesting they have done?

You know perfectly well that they have.

But you are distracting. Do you think that it is OK for Russia to invade and occupy European countries by military force?

You know your point is unassailable when someone accuses you of 'distracting'.

How is the involvement by the United States in toppling the democratically elected Ukrainian government and the installation of its successor in any way justified?

How is the use of fascist agents in the toppling of that government in any way justified?

Ukraine was a sovereign state.
It isn't any more -- it's a client of the State Department.

Do you think it's OK for the US to invade and occupy European countries by military force or by use of agents?

Do you think it's OK for the US to force regime change, bring down democratically elected governments?

Do you think it's OK for the US to force drastic fiscal policies on interim puppet governments installed by the US, force puppet governments to conclude binding agreements with bodies such as the IMF that will affect the freedom to govern and sovereignty of the client states for decades no matter who ends up succeeding the puppets?

Do you think it's OK for the US to encourage the far Right to believe it has any place in the future of Europe?

Do you think it's OK for the US to encourage the far Right to believe its preferred method of engagement in the political arena has any legitimacy?

You'd better start a "US is the antichrist" thread rather than filling up the Russia/Ukraine thread.

If you're trying to imply the US has never toppled a sovereign government of Ukraine, using the services of Ukrainian fascists to do so, or installed a puppet administration in Ukraine, or planned to extend NATO into Ukraine, or forced a puppet Ukrainian administration to agree to public sector employment cuts, or agree to IMF and American loans with conditions that will bind future democratically-elected Ukrainian governments for decades, remove and effectively negate Ukraine's sovereignty, then maybe you should post a thread elsewhere yourself.

There has to be a fiction section here where you would find yourself very much at home. You could post your anti-Putin screeds there too (don't forget to use the term 'Soviet Union' as much as possible), and your theory that Russia has invaded Ukraine would no doubt win you many fans among aficionados of literature.

I assume from your silence on the questions related to the blatant and proven American involvement in the toppling of the democratically-elected Ukrainian government by means of fascist thugs and subsequent American creation of a Ukrainian puppet regime and client state that you are having a little difficulty dealing with facts.

I don't think it is OK for Russia to invade and occupy European countries by military force.

This thread is about Russia and the Ukraine.

Russia is invading and occupying Ukraine by militatary force.

That's not OK.

Obviously you disagree on both counts.

Since this thread is about Russia and Ukraine, then discussion of the involvement of the US in bringing down the democratically elected government of Ukraine by use of agents in the form of fascist thugs on the streets of Kiev is perfectly pertinent.

So is discussion of US installation of a puppet interim administration that was not democratically elected but which was nevertheless forced by the US and its EU friends to come to terms with the IMF and the US and sign far-reaching financial agreements, binding on future elected Ukrainian governments, which will tie the hands of any such governments and seriously restrict Ukrainian sovereignty -- in effect, future Ukrainian governments will be merely managers of the debt obligation owed to the IMF and the US, and will have to choose the debt obligations over the welfare of the Ukrainian people when push comes to shove, which it will, over the coming decades. So much for the concept of democracy.

Again, if you want to discuss fiction, I suggest take your statement about military invasion by Russia to another topic. Maybe unleash your imagination on a thread about zombies?

I am here to discuss facts, not your feelings about what is right or wrong about imaginary events.

Don't forget to use the phrase 'invade and occupy' plenty if you join the zombie discussions. You will really get into the spirit of things. The zombie people will welcome you as one of their own.

Otoh, the 'Soviet Union' schtick won't gain much traction because even the zombie crowd can draw a line between fantasy and reality, so you may want to consider shelving it for a bit.

This is the thread about Russia and Ukraine.

Russia has already invaded and occupied part of Ukraine, and continues to invade and occupy more parts if Ukraine.

I can see that you object to the words, but not to the act.

I think you have fundamentally misunderstood recent developments in the state of Ukraine if you think Russia has done anything of the sort. The alternative is that you have not misunderstood events but instead have a personal political agenda and are using this thread to promote it.

For reasons of your own, you keep bleating on about 'invasion and occupation' as if there were some truth to it. Perhaps you subscribe to the operational philosophy that if you keep on throwing mud some of it is bound to stick? Maybe you take the phrase 'for dummies' in the OP literally, and believe posters here are so thick your approach will be successful.

Regarding the 'misunderstanding' theory, it's understandable when you have clearly invested so much in personal hatred of Russia and a certain Russian president whom I dare not name for fear of causing apoplexy on your part, that your perception of current events has naturally been clouded (and as amply demonstrated upthread, your understanding of the past has also been rather seriously skewed by ideology) but I do not see how you can believe that so much seething hatred might possibly contribute to an understanding 'for dummies' of the natural and very predictable consequences of open, illegal and completely unabashed interference in the affairs of a sovereign foreign state by a bunch of predatory Cold Warrior yahoos from the US State Department, eyes shining and hearts aglow with thoughts of 'nation building', with their lobbyist friends' fat little hands rubbing together in glee at the thought of all that agribusiness and coal, etc., that will presently be within their grasp.

Further to my first paragraph the 'personal political agenda' theory it strikes me that perhaps you wish to demonstrate here the feelings of those factions that were talking a few months ago about nuking Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine and citizens of the neighbouring state to the east, and those who voted for them apparently in support of those sentiments. A sort of live demonstration of bigotry, nationalism run amok, rank hatred, refusal to accept demographic and political reality or the proposition that Ukraine should be anything other than what Ukrainian militant right wing groups and the US State Department want it to be -- a piece of performance art in service of these parties' political aims, in other words.

You allege that I have a personal hatred of Russia. That is untrue.

However, it is sadly the case that under Putin, Russian forces have invaded and occupied European countries, currently Ukraine.

I don't know which country Russia will invade next. However it is a European problem, which is especially worrying to the many European countries which have been occupied by Russian and Soviet forces over the last 50 years, and which were able to begin the journey to independence when the Soviet Union collapsed. It is no secret that this is a source of regret and resentment to Putin.

You not only have a personal vendetta against Russia, and very likely an ideological agenda, you seem unable to tell fact from fiction but I suspect that is willful on your part.
You must also think other people are really stupid.

your personal abuse is untrue and of no value.

Personal abuse?
It's a correct analysis of your motives in posting here.
Your ideology-driven agenda is very obvious.

your personal abuse is untrue, of no value, and continued.

59 direct references to an invasion and occupation of Ukraine.
28 negative references to Putin.
22 questions 'Who is next to be invaded?'
2 not-so veiled references to Israel; settlements allegedly planned by Putin in Ukraine, a post about claims to land based on pitching tents thousands of years ago.

you continue to busy yourself with personal attacks.

They are of no value, and are irrelevant to Russia's actions in Ukraine.

How is it a 'personal attack' to present an accurate analysis of your agenda?

How is it a 'personal attack' to ask whether a poster who is obsessed by the idea that Ukraine has been invaded and occupied by Russia, and repeatedly asks 'Who is next?' has an ideologically driven agenda, or one based on blind prejudice?

There really is a gobsmacking volume of posts on your part promoting various fictions. I think it is absolutely fair to point this out.

If you post again and again on certain themes no matter how the discussion on the thread turns, and return to well-worn phrasing over and over again, then it is very reasonable to suspect that there is an ideological agenda or some personal prejudice behind the posts, and to state this suspicion is not a 'personal attack' but a completely reasonable and rational response to a determined effort to broadcast one specific message ad nauseum.

The numbers speak for themselves.

if you have nothing to say about Russia's actions in Ukraine, and want to waste your time with personal attacks and untrue allegations, you are achieving nothing.