Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

Reports now that the trapped Ukrainian troops are being allowed to leave by the rebels. Good news.

I am a European. I don't want my country to be a Soviet satellite.

People in many European countries feel the same. Especially the ones which have been under Soviet control in living memory and have suffered Soviet military invasion and occupation. That includes Ukraine, part of Germany, Georgia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic and Slovakia... the list goes on and on and on. Many of these countries are now West-facing and have joined, or want to join, the EU as is their right. Some of them are very afraid of being invaded and occupied and put under Russian domination again. Their fears are increased when they see Russian forces in Ukraine. Can anyone say they are wrong?

I think that Ukraine asking to become a NATO member is dangerous for the whole of Europe and might end up eventually as war between Europe and Russia. Spheres of influence do exist in the real world. America would not have sat by while a bordering country such as Mexico became a member of the Warsaw Pact for example.

Ukraine should remain a neutral non-aligned state, then there would be no NATO threat to Russia on its borders.

Talks and deals can be made between Ukraine and Russia. But the coup regime in Ukraine is shelling civilians and following a policy that is obviously being driven by people from outside of Ukraine and it has led to a war and to what might end up as an even wider war if the warmongers have their way.

'It's better not to mess with Russia': Putin's nuclear warning to West on Ukraine
...
he warned the West against any attempt to support Ukraine in its efforts to defeat Russian separatists. Speaking at a pro-Kremlin youth camp near Moscow, he said: ‘Russia’s partners... should understand it’s best not to mess with us.

‘Thank God, I think no one is thinking of unleashing a large-scale conflict with Russia. I want to remind you that Russia is one of the leading nuclear powers.’

...

Ukraine’s Ambassador at Large Oleksandr Scherba appealed to the West for military help. ‘We want the West to understand Ukraine is fighting Europe’s war,’ he said.

‘There is only one thing that separates your people driving to their jobs and a full relapse into a Cold War – and that is young Ukrainian volunteer soldiers.’ Government sources said David Cameron would press for tough new sanctions on Russia at a summit of EU leaders in Brussels today. But military intervention is not being contemplated.

The crisis in Ukraine is also now set to dominate next week’s Nato summit in Newport, south Wales.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2737526/Putin-s-plans-revealed-Vladimir-praises-pro-Moscow-rebels-fighting-New-Russia.html

'We want the West to understand Ukraine is fighting Europe’s war '

It is not Europe's war, it is the warmongers' war and they haven't asked the European people to vote on it.

Farage said no, will anyone else follow him and will the people be asked if they are in favour of it?

It must be true, then

Says the man who links the BBC. The BBC who deleted eyewitness accounts describing the destruction of MH17 because it 'didn't fit the narrative'. What a shame it's been archived by Global Research where it can be seen by all.

these are the eyewitnesses who said they could recognise and identify planes six miles up?

When you look at planes six miles up, what can you see? Can you see the colour, shape, or markings? I can't.

Can you provide a link that confirms that eyewitnesses recognised the type of plane? I've tried but can find nothing that confirms what you say. They only say they heard machine gun fire overhead in links I found.

OSCE representative Michael Boriuciw says cockpit has been tampered with.

I wonder when, or indeed if, the information from the black box recorders will be revealed. Whitehouse spokeswoman Jen Psaki confirmed in late July that most of their (US authorities) evidence came from social media. Nothing at all from their satellites. In fact, the satellite photo they released was date stamped 2010.

No, I didn't keep the links of pro-Russians saying that the plane was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter.

It's funny how some people think the cockpit holes are bullet-shaped

"The first apparent hard evidence that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down by a surface-to-air missile is emerging from the crash site in eastern Ukraine, after experts confirmed on Monday there were signs of shrapnel damage to the aircraft.

The photograph above, first published by the Financial Times over the weekend, shows a piece of the downed Boeing 777 about a metre square with a gaping hole in the middle, surrounded by smaller holes and apparent burn marks."

more on www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=crm/email/2014722/nbe/UKMorningHeadlines/product#axzz3C0MUckoH

but you may not be able to see it

I posted a link to that photo and you forgot to raise the following:-

1. A missile fired from the ground would not be so accurate so as to hit the cockpit. To be that accurate you need to be at close range.

1. Marks on the skin show impact marks going in and out of the aircraft. To do that requires two or more aircraft/missiles.

1. A BUK, what the US term a SAM11, hits its target from above. Those shrapnel marks are on the side of the cockpit. You can tell that because of, well, window. So it isn't a BUK.

1. Russia has said from almost the beginning that at least one Ukrainian fighter was shadowing the Boeing777 until shortly before it was shot down. Why does Ukraine refuse to release their radar data?

1. Why did Ukrainian military officials take over Air Traffic Control immediately after the incident?

1. Why will the US not release any of the satellite images they have, instead relying on a 4 year old image of the area to 'prove' a missile took the plane down?

You didn't answer then and you won't now. You'll just call me a Russian stooge when all I am is an anti war type. I don't like Putin, but I despise warmongers more, and O'Bama and Kerry are upping the war rhetoric massively. Putin has reminded the world not to forget that Russia is also a nuclear weapon holder and will retaliate if attacked. So why is NATO insistent on going into Ukraine if they want peace?

"1. A missile fired from the ground would not be so accurate so as to hit the cockpit. To be that accurate you need to be at close range."

FT said "The former RAF officer, who flew fast jets, said that based on the evidence it would appear that the missile exploded in front and to the left of the aircraft.

Anti-aircraft missiles are not designed to score a direct hit as they are targeted to destroy fast, agile fighter jets. Instead, they are designed to explode within about 20m of their target, sending out a cloud of red hot metal to increase the chances of inflicting as much damage as possible.

The former RAF pilot said an explosion in front of the aircraft would be consistent with the interception course a SAM would be expected to follow. “The last thing a ground-launched missile wants to do is play catch-up with an aircraft, it would look to get ahead of its target,” he said."

"2. Marks on the skin show impact marks going in and out of the aircraft. To do that requires two or more aircraft/missiles."

You seem to imagine that red-hot fragments travelling at enormous speed would penetrate one side of the aircraft, but would not travel through and exit the other side

So why is NATO insistent on going into Ukraine if they want peace?

One might ask, why is Russia insistent on going into Ukraine if they want peace?

FT wrote "All three experts agreed that the large hole in the middle of the fragment was likely to have been punched from the inside out as the aircraft rapidly depressurised when it was hit at a height of 33,000ft"

FT said "The former RAF officer, who flew fast jets, said that based on the evidence it would appear that the missile exploded in front and to the left of the aircraft.

Anti-aircraft missiles are not designed to score a direct hit as they are targeted to destroy fast, agile fighter jets. Instead, they are designed to explode within about 20m of their target, sending out a cloud of red hot metal to increase the chances of inflicting as much damage as possible.

The former RAF pilot said an explosion in front of the aircraft would be consistent with the interception course a SAM

So I should take the word of a pilot over that of a general who's in charge of anti-aircraft batallions? Makes sense. Unlike your final sentence.

Also, the pilot said "the missile exploded in front and to the left of the aircraft". Why, in that case, does the photograph you posted show holes indicating ingoing puncture marks. That means the explosion must have surrounded the aircraft.

Supplementary question: in the report redacted by the BBC but available elsewhere eyewitnesses stated they heard machine gun fir from overhead when they were asked if they heard/saw a missile. What is your reply to that?

As to why is Russia in Ukraine, I've already answered that but you keep ignoring it. According to the Separatist leader there are about 4000 foreigners fighting against Kiev, around 1000 of whom are Russian. OSCE has stated there is 'no mass build up of Russian troops' along the border with Ukraine. This has been backed up by UN observers and France24 journalists. I find it amusing that the US have satellite shots of the opposite but none of the shooting down of the airliner. Funny that.

You did half as well as Meatloaf. But two out of six is better than you usually do.

1. Russia has said from almost the beginning that at least one Ukrainian fighter was shadowing the Boeing777 until shortly before it was shot down. Why does Ukraine refuse to release their radar data?

Please show me the Russian satellite and radar data, which you think supports this shadowing and attack allegation.

I will try once you answer my questions. Which, given your previous form means I get to use my time for something else.

that Russia has invaded Ukraine. :o

I wonder if the pro-Putin loby is still clinging to the allegation that the jet was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter.

It is interesting to view the recent Panorama program. If you haven't got time, start at 14mins.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04j2pjj/panorama-putins-gamble?intc_type=promo&intc_location=news&intc_campaign=putinsgamble_promo&intc_linkname=news_index_preview

The pro-Putin lobby claims that the Russian army is not invading and fighting in Ukraine. Therefore there are no Russian soldiers killed in action, therefore there are no bodies being sent home. Therefore, the families of such Russian soldiers cannot be grieving their lost sons, brothers and husbands, and anybody who says otherwise must be attacked and silenced.

so this isn't happening

nor this

And the Russian military hospitals are not busy with the wounded.

"I am a European. I don't want my country to be a Soviet satellite.
People in many European countries feel the same. Especially the ones which have been under Soviet control in living memory and have suffered Soviet military invasion and occupation. That includes Ukraine....Can anyone say they are wrong?"

It is not obvious to you then that a large number of people in eastern Ukraine do not share your strange paranoia about Russia, strongly identify with their Russian heritage and want no part of the so-called state of Ukraine, which is rapidly becoming a satellite of Germany, the UK, France and the rest of the EU, and want no part of a state with an administration hand picked by the US State Department (at least until after elections are held in October, which will be a joke unless the Ukrainian Army succeeds in wresting control of large swathes of the east from rebels before then).

Many Ukrainians have not too fond memories of the previous time Germany dominated their country. It seems they have longer memories than you, or less of a tendency to apply whitewash to their appreciation of what the Right is capable of.

It will be interesting to see how much the Right gains in the west in the upcoming ballot. The Right has a lot of momentum at the moment (see Swedish election results). It is most ironic that the US has seen fit to encourage its legitimisation. Or maybe on reflection there isn't any irony.

It should also be clear at this point that the US backed the far right in staging the revolution in Kiev that toppled a democratically elected government, and that therefore those in the east with clear and accurate impressions of the Right are correct to be worried.

No answer to the question about NATO going into Ukraine then...

There is nothing remotely paranoid about not wanting your country to be invaded by Russia.

I can confidently tell you that NATO has not been invading Ukraine with tanks, troops, artillery and anti-aircraft missiles.

Which is 100% the reverse of what Russia is doing.