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Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

977 replies

chicaguapa · 06/03/2014 11:47

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 21/09/2014 21:48

Would you like to go back and do a count yourself?
I assure you my count of your statements is accurate and the repetition of themes in your posts is extremely noticeable.

PigletJohn · 21/09/2014 21:50

You allege that I have a personal hatred of Russia. That is untrue.

However, it is sadly the case that under Putin, Russian forces have invaded and occupied European countries, currently Ukraine.

PigletJohn · 21/09/2014 22:36

Returning to the subject, a march took place in Moscow today (a march in St Petersburg was broken up by police.

Probably some of those present were concerned about their sons, husbands or brothers coming back from Ukraine in a box

One of the "Soldiers' Mothers" groups has been branded traitors.

mathanxiety · 21/09/2014 22:44

60 and counting (direct references to invasion by Russia of Ukraine).

PigletJohn · 21/09/2014 22:48

If you want to deny that Russian troops have invaded and occupied Ukraine, please do.

There is no point in you continuing to make untrue allegations and personal attacks.

mathanxiety · 22/09/2014 00:44

61

PigletJohn · 22/09/2014 11:49

From time to time, the pro-Putin lobby uses carefully edited reports from the OSCE, which is permitted by Russia to monitor only two official Border Crossing Points. When the OSCE reports that is has seen no Russian tanks entering Ukraine at the two official Border Crossing Points, the pro-Putin lobby likes to give the impression that the OSCE says there are no tanks.

The OSCE strenuously attempts to correct the Russian propaganda:

Despite the repeated efforts of the Acting Chief Observer to convey the message that the OM’s mandate is limited to only two BCPs (Donetsk and Gukovo), the media continued to regularly attribute OM’s statements erroneously to the entire Russian-Ukrainian border, especially in the headlines of news articles. The Observer Mission will continue to work with the OSCE Communication and Media Relations Section to try to make sure that inaccuracies are corrected and that objective and impartial information continues to flow to the OSCE participating States and the public.

Other reports, not constrained by Russia, tell a different story.
NATO Says Images Show Russian Tanks in Ukraine (with supporting images)

UK Ambassador Mark Lyall Grant tells UN there are more than 1,000 Russian troops helping separatists in eastern Ukraine (with images)

meanwhile, families of Russian soldiers sent to fight for Russia in Ukraine pray that their boys will come back alive

Even the pro-Putin lobby avoids denying that Russian troops, tanks and weapons are invading Ukraine.

mathanxiety · 22/09/2014 20:23

It's of course predictable that you should throw in phrases like 'the Pro-Putin lobby' (yawn) and grasp at whatever straws you can find to back up your repetitive assertions of 'invasion and occupation'; the only question worthy of attention here is why you continue to insist your version of reality is the truth. I have posted my theories on this matter. I don't think I am far off the mark. I think your agenda and motivation are transparent.

So you think the OSCE reports, commissioned by various member governments, are in some way constrained by Russia? You think there is some deep, dark secret that the OSCE can't reveal? You refuse to believe international observers on the scene who are actively monitoring traffic representing 43% of crossings into Russia from Ukraine.

Why do you assume the statement in the last paragraph that you quote refers to Russian media? No such distinction was made in the report. Maybe you imagine they dare not breathe the word 'Russian'. Maybe you think there is some conspiracy afoot.

Naturally you prefer to believe 'other reports', which have in common that they are not constrained by attention to fact:

Of course NATO says blah blah blah.
Of course the US ambassador bleats on. He is an employee of the State Department after all.
It's all very reminiscent of the '20,000 troops!' '44,000 troops!' 'No! Wait! 800,000 troops massed at the border!' breathless reportage that happened a few months ago.

And you post a brave Torygraph attempt to make a lot more hay about one mother's issues with the army than the situation warrants -- to be fair to the article's author the desperation to manufacture a story is actually very clear from the mid point of the article on.

'Interestingly, and despite their anxiety, most of the relatives said they believed the official government theory that the soldiers got lost while on an exercise.

However, several said it was an “alarm signal” that the young men send text messages after their departure to Rostov saying their phones were being removed, something that had not happened when they were dispatched on exercises to other parts of Russia.

One of the soldiers had already written on his social networking account that he was going to “exterminate Maidan” (meaning pro-western Ukrainians) and another sent a final message to his girlfriend saying his unit was unloading in Matveyev Kurgan, a settlement 15 miles short of the Ukrainian border.

In the video recordings released by the SBU, one of the soldiers criticised Russian authorities and said he knew in the end that he was going to Ukraine.

“They brainwash us Russians, I’ll tell you that,” said Ivan Melchakov, a slight man in camouflage fatigues. “In fact, everything is different. Not the way they say on television. But we simple guys, they tell us what to do, we do it. We’re coming here like cannon fodder.”

Mrs Garina, who is Mr Pochtoyev’s mother, says she thinks the young men were speaking under duress from their Ukrainian captors. “They are low-ranking soldiers who were led like blind mice by their officers, they thought they were on an exercise,” she said.

“If the government doesn’t help them, we mothers ourselves will go to rescue them.”

The men’s fate remains unclear. Ukrainian authorities have not said what will happen to them but there are rumours of an exchange for a captured Ukrainian pilot being held in Russia.

In Kostroma, the regiment has given a vague promise to update the relatives on Friday. An officer at the headquarters told the Telegraph there was no one available for comment.

Vyacheslav Savosteyev, whose son Vladimir, 27, is among the captives, said he was already thinking of leaving for Ukraine. “It’s a big country, though, I’m not sure how I would find him,” he said. “Maybe I’ll go to the border and ask the customs officers.”

Interesting mention of a Ukrainian pilot though.

PigletJohn · 22/09/2014 20:58

Are you saying that Russian troops have not invaded and occupied Ukraine? I can't see a denial of the invasion in all that verbiage.

mathanxiety · 23/09/2014 00:13

This is like Bingo...

PigletJohn · 23/09/2014 00:34

So if you don't deny that Russian forces have invaded and occupied Ukraine, what are you whinging about?

mathanxiety · 23/09/2014 05:24

64...

DoctorTwo · 23/09/2014 07:53

The US admitted it spent between $5 and $10Bn on regime change in Ukraine and it's all the fault of the Russian president. That makes total sense. Well, it does to those who believe that it isn't the US who are expansionists. Russia has military bases in 2 countries, the US in over 100, including 50 of 54 African states.

The great thing about the African states is that the US has spent 70 years propping up corrupt dictators yet trade between China and Africa is booming. Could it be because instead of arming thugs China is actually building massive infrastructure projects? Oh no, that would be too simple.

Remember about a month ago I wrote that sanctions would hurt Europe? So far there have been riots in Greece and Spain due to massive loss of earnings. There are several Eastern European countries who are 'under consideration' for joining the EU that are breaking the embargo because they can't afford to do otherwise.

In following the US in issuing sanctions against Russia the shortsighted neocons are unwittingly bringing about their own downfall. If things carry on as they are expect to see more riots, maybe even revolutions leading to countries leaving the EU.

DoctorTwo · 23/09/2014 08:09

Part of something I posted on Weds 20th August:-

"The sanction will hit Greece, Italy, Ireland, Britain, France, Germany, Sweden, Finland and others, to the tune of approx £16Bn. What is interesting is that we still supply them with military equipment. Another interesting fact is we still sell exactly the same military equipment to Ukraine."

PigletJohn · 23/09/2014 09:18

Are you suggesting that US links to African dictators are an excuse for Russia to invade Ukraine? Or are you claiming that Russia has not sent troops, tanks and heavy weapons into Ukraine? Or is it both?

Do you still pretend that the Malaysian jet was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter?

DoctorTwo · 23/09/2014 21:10

So you're saying the OSCE, the UN and several news outlets are lying? You are Jen Psaki and I claim my £5. :o

And blaming Russia for US/NATO expansionism just takes the biscuit. Not even Ms Psaki would do that. It sounds like you're saying "look how aggressive Russia is! See how close they put their country to our military bases!"

I'm ruling out a BUK as the shrapnel distribution is wrong. A BUK explodes above its target, not parallel to it. I trust the work done by Global Research with cooperation of the OSCE wrt MH17 more than I do the work done by the US State Department, who openly admitted their sources were from social media. The opinion of the first foreigner on the scene, Mr Boriuciw (iirc) from the OSCE was that the plane was shot down by machine gun fire. Try to remember he is Ukrainian/Canadian, so is actually more than likely to be ideologically on the side of Kyiv given his cultural heritage and background.

The main reason Russia is being demonised is the US, via the corporations that run it, see the writing on the wall for the dollar. When respected commentators like Mitch Feierstein and James Rickards, along with others, all say the same you (yes, even you) can begin to see it.

If you don't believe that the US is run by corporate interests look at the laws passed 1983. They're approx 83% in favour of business interest, not the people.

PigletJohn · 23/09/2014 21:12

"So you're saying the OSCE, the UN and several news outlets are lying?"

Don't be silly. I have said nothing of the sort.

Are you suggesting that US links to African dictators are an excuse for Russia to invade Ukraine? Or are you claiming that Russia has not sent troops, tanks and heavy weapons into Ukraine? Or is it both?

Do you still pretend that the Malaysian jet was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter?

DoctorTwo · 23/09/2014 22:05

Or are you claiming that Russia has not sent troops, tanks and heavy weapons into Ukraine?

The OSCE, UN observers and several news outlets can find no evidence for this. Are they lying? It appears from your constant opposition to evidence provided on the ground you really are Jen Psaki. I see what you did, reversing your initials and changing your user name to a male one. Good try...

Do you still pretend that the Malaysian jet was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter?

Why is it you don't respond to my questions? ? Oh, I forgot, you can't. Go on, refute what the Russian general said about the Buk's angle of attack.

I know you want me to make a personal attack, but hard lines. I'll continue to play the ball, no matter how many times you post the same questions.

PigletJohn · 23/09/2014 23:03

"The OSCE, UN observers and several news outlets can find no evidence for this"

Are you sincerely unaware of the fact that the OSCE is nor permitted to observe the whole of the Russia-Ukrainian border? It is only permitted to monitor two Official Crossing Points? And that it keeps saying that the absence of evidence at these two crossing points is not evidence of what is happening elsewhere?

So why on earth are you pretending that OSCE seeing no evidence at the two points it is allowed to monitor is evidence of what is happening along the border?

mathanxiety · 24/09/2014 02:14

The OSCE complains that the media are using the phrase 'the border' implying the entire border when the OSCE reports they quote refer to two crossings that account for 43% of traffic. There is no implication made by the OSCE that anything is happening elsewhere. Unlike you, the OSCE is not in the fiction business.

You have made it clear that you do not think the OSCE reports are worth the paper they are written on and that you are sure there is an invasion afoot all over the border away from the two checkpoints.

In the absence of OSCE monitoring at other crossings, you are simply making up stuff that you are sure happens elsewhere.

Why do you make up things that nobody has seen?
What evidence are you privy to that apparently nobody else is, of 'what is happening along the border'?

PigletJohn · 17/10/2014 13:20

Interesting assessment by the FT video

Putins military adventures seem to be winning, but at the expense of a terrible long-term relationship with the rest of Europe.

Meanwhile the Rouble continues to plummet, and the Russian economy is in decline, with an absence of foreign loans and investment. It is reported that Russia will have to cut its massive armaments and armed forces budget.

Coincidentally, Russia's big money-earning export is oil, and the price has dropped more than 20% in the last year.

PigletJohn · 17/10/2014 13:47

Finance minister warns Russia can't afford military spending plan

Things have got worse since April

DoctorTwo · 19/10/2014 09:42
threatens NATO because, durr, look how close Russia put itself to NATO bases. :o For once it isn't Jen Psaki making herself and her bosses look stupid.

The US should be more worried about oil prices, seeing as they're the largest producer of the stuff and they don't export it. The ruble may well have crashed and will probably continue to do so, but the dollar is doomed in the long term as it's being continuously devalued by the Fed printing $85Bn per month to prop up Wall Street. At least Moscow will be able to back their currency with a tangible asset.

I understand Russia and Ukraine have signed a deal for this winter's gas. Good job really, as Europe's supply could've been threatened.

DoctorTwo · 19/10/2014 19:43

German intelligence agency has a view as to who shot down MH17.

PigletJohn · 19/10/2014 19:55

It's very curious that your source translates the German page into exactly the opposite of what it actually says

Ostukraine: BND macht Separatisten für MH17-Absturz verantwortlich

"Der Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) kommt in einer detaillierten Analyse zu dem Schluss, dass prorussische Rebellen für den Absturz der malaysischen Passagiermaschine, Flug MH17, in der Ostukraine verantwortlich seien."

German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17

"After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine."

Is it possible that www.rt.com has its own agenda to push?

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