Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

My friend is an English lecturer at a university in Ivano-Frankivsk - his blog has been very useful reading for me when I've not been too sure what's going on with this issue: Revolution, Lecturing and Life in Western Ukraine

A friend of mine has a father (now very old and infirm) who spent three years as conscripted forced labourer in the Third Reich during the 1940s. He arrived in the US from a displaced persons camp in northern Germany, via Canada. He opted for a fresh start in the western hemisphere because he had seen his entire family killed in his home village by Nazis both foreign and homegrown. The objection the homegrown Nazis had to their existence was that they were part Polish two generations back. There was nobody for him to return to in Ukraine. Although Ukrainian, he found himself very unwelcome in post WW2 expat Ukrainian circles in both Canada and the US, and ended up throwing in his lot with the large Irish community in the American city he ended up in. So my friend, and this man's grandson, a friend of DS's and another potential draftee since age 18, are feeling the irony to a significant degree right now.

The reason for the frosty reception was that expat communities tend to be dominated by Banderites and remnants of the SS Schuetzen Division "Galizien" or Galizien Division, aka the SS Freiwilligen Division "Galizien", aka the 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Galizische Nr.1), aka the 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ukrainische Nr.1), aka the 1st Ukrainian Division of the Ukrainian National Army, who had ended WW2 at Rimini in Italy, having seen action in Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia and Italy where they were involved in Nazi rearguard actions against rebellions seeking to speed the rout of the Third Reich, alongside the Dirlewanger Brigade and the remnants of the Vlasov army. The emigration from Italy of approximately 7,000 former Ukrainian Waffen SS personnel, mainly to Canada and the UK, was facilitated by the western Allies.

This is the community that supports the Right in Ukraine even still.

One of my old teachers was an educated Pole who fled during the Soviet invasion of 1939 (while the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were still chums)

He was one of a small number of Poles with a university degree who were not mass-murdered by Soviet forces as part of a deliberate policy of extermination.

If he was alive today he would be terribly anxious to see that the neo-Soviets, led by Putin, are intent on recreating Greater Russia by intimidation, invasion and occupation of their weaker neighbours.

A great many Ukrainians were also arrested, deported, imprisoned or slaughtered by Soviet forces.

You may think it almost incredible that the Polish police officers, and even Polish Boy Scouts, were also rounded up by the Soviets.

Putin and the neo-Soviets praise the actions of these Soviet forces.

Abby Martin has posted on the Facebooks that she was interviewed by the BBC, and the fact that she criticised the British role in the coup like regime change in Ukraine was the cause for the BBC telling her the interview would not be broadcast was entirely unrelated. I'm pretty sure, in light of Glenn Greenwald reporting on Edward Snowden, the Grauniad would love to interview her. And why not? She's an intelligent engaging young woman.

She was interviewed by Prize Moron just before he got sacked and said much the same thing, so it's nowt new.

And PJ, before you say she's Putins mouthpiece try factchecking her. Her journalism is spot on. And she called Russian intervention in Crimea despicable and didn't get sacked by RT, showing that their journos have freedom. Imagine a BBC journo criticising the sitting government, he or she would be toast. So much for freedom of speech and a free press. :o

what is the point you are making?

RT is a propaganda channel and anything they produce should be viewed through this. Or even better not viewed at all. What they do has nothing to do with journalism.

My exBIL's mother in law spent 2.5 years of her childhood at a notorious Polish death camp, in the children's section. I have a nephew named in honour of her brother, who was killed there. Although it may pain you to admit this, many other Poles spent time there too, including, famously, Fr Maximilian Kolbe (who could most definitely be classified as part of the Polish intelligentsia).

While you tend to focus on Soviet-inflicted deaths, maybe the figures from the post-Soviet, Polish-government-affiliated Institute of National Remembrance will offer some perspective: 'The Polish Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) estimates total deaths under the German occupation at at 5,470,000 to 5.670,000 Jews and Poles, 2,770,000 Poles, 2.7 to 2.9 million Jews [9] According to IPN research there were also 150,000 victims of Soviet repression' en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_Poland It's strange to decry the wiping out of the educated elite - several times now - without any mention of the slavery and extermination of almost 3 million other Poles. And of course millions of Jews, poor and elite alike.

The particular old lady I know saw her entire community dispossessed to make room for Aryan German settlers. They had to make way for the New Order in Europe. Her home region in Poland became part of Reichsgau Wartheland (within which the RC church had been outlawed by 1941). She ended up orphaned because no provision was made for food or shelter for families or communities that were packed onto trains, marooned in transit camps, and finally moved into the General Government (formerly part of 'Poland'). Her community was one of the first to be expelled. If she had remained at her home for another year or so, she would most likely have found herself in a Polenlager because the General Government had filled up and could not absorb any more people.

If Generalplan Ost had been carried out, 85% of Poles would have been slaughtered by the Nazis.

While you tend to focus on Nazi-inflicted deaths, it is worth reflecting that the total number of deaths caused by Soviet oppression greatly exceeds those killed by Nazis, and continued for a longer period. I do notice that you prefer not to dwell on Soviet oppression, but repeatedly suggest that Ukrainians are Nazi supporters.

Putin and the neo-Soviets who seek to recreate a new Soviet Union by the intimidation, invasion and occupation of their weaker neighbours are a tremendous threat to Europe.

So when Ukrainians are marching down a street paying homage to a Ukrainian SS division, wearing T-shirts bearing the legend 'totenkopf' while giving a Nazi salute with hundreds of their friends, it doesn't mean they in any way support Nazism or what it stands for, and it is not meant in any way to imply approbation for what the Nazis did to millions of Ukrainians or Jews or Poles or Russians?

bemybebe Sun 20-Apr-14 21:52:55

RT is a propaganda channel and anything they produce should be viewed through this. Or even better not viewed at all. What they do has nothing to do with journalism

Oh dear. At least try to back up your assertion with something even approaching the truth. RT may be biased but nothing they've reported so far has been proved inaccurate as far as I can ascertain. Unlike Pox, Sky, BBC, Guardian and other news sites. France24 is another good source, along with Truthdig and Zerohedge.

Breaking news. The US are sending marines to Romania, according to France24.

War talk is being ramped up, and it's all coming from the west. As it always does. Neotardism needs conflict to grow otherwise it eats itself.

When the neo-Soviets have tens of thousands of troops massed near Ukraine's borders, and have already invaded, occupied and annexed a large chunk of territory, WTF do you mean by "coming from the West?"

Far right Russian politician orders aides to rape a journalist asking awkward questions about Ukraine.

Do you know how many US military personnel there are in Europe right now, PigletJohn?

France24 have looked for Russian troops massing on borders with Ukraine and found none. It can't be that hard to hide so many tanks and troops then. US troops have been seen all over the region. I reckon that means Russia are better at hide and seek. Or aren't there.

The Irish guy, O'Bama, says sanctions are going to be ramped up. As Alan Hansen would say, schoolboy error. Russia will turn east and deal in local currency. The dollar is fucked, which is why the US is being hawkish, they know only war will save their military industrial complex.

The main problem with western coverage is a complete lack of objectivity. Watching RT shows me both sides. Aleksei Yarozeshkey showed how the former government in Ukraine was using deadly weapons against protesters, then proved that protesters shot and killed 90 or so people from both sides in Maidan with the aid of a local doctor. RT's position hasn't changed much from what I can see. They, France24 and Aljazeera (along with Truthdig, Zero Hedge and a few other news sites) broadcast similar stories.

I'm aware that RT and Aljazeera are funded by government, but so is France24.

I know you'll say RT is Putin's mouthpiece, because you always do. I'll just juxtapose that with the head of the BBC being Chris Patten, former Tory MP. And current Tory member of the house of lards (sic).

an alternative view of Russian troops around Ukraine

Good article by John Pilger. It is starting to look like the elite's planners are planning for a war at some stage. This is a trap for Putin but he has little choice and the planners knew that.

"In February, the US mounted one of its proxy "colour" coups against the elected government of Ukraine; the shock troops were fascists. For the first time since 1945, a pro-Nazi, openly antisemitic party controls key areas of state power in a European capital. No western European leader has condemned this revival of fascism on the border of Russia. Some 30 million Russians died in the invasion of their country by Hitler's Nazis, who were supported by the infamous Ukrainian Insurgent Army (the UPA) which was responsible for numerous Jewish and Polish massacres. The Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists, of which the UPA was the military wing, inspires today's Svoboda party.

Since Washington's putsch in Kiev – and Moscow's inevitable response in Russian Crimea to protect its Black Sea fleet – the provocation and isolation of Russia have been inverted in the news to the "Russian threat". This is fossilised propaganda. The US air force general who runs Nato forces in Europe – General Philip Breedlove, no less – claimed more than two weeks ago to have pictures showing 40,000 Russian troops "massing" on the border with Ukraine. So did Colin Powell claim to have pictures proving there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. What is certain is that Barack Obama's rapacious, reckless coup in Ukraine has ignited a civil war and Vladimir Putin is being lured into a trap .

Following a 13-year rampage that began in stricken Afghanistan well after Osama bin Laden had fled, then destroyed Iraq beneath a false flag, invented a "nuclear rogue" in Iran, dispatched Libya to a Hobbesian anarchy and backed jihadists in Syria, the US finally has a new cold war to supplement its worldwide campaign of murder and terror by drone.

A Nato membership action plan – straight from the war room of Dr Strangelove – is General Breedlove's gift to the new dictatorship in Ukraine. "Rapid Trident" will put US troops on Ukraine's Russian border and "Sea Breeze" will put US warships within sight of Russian ports. At the same time, Nato war games in eastern Europe are designed to intimidate Russia. Imagine the response if this madness was reversed and happened on the US's borders. Cue General Turgidson.

And there is China. On 23 April, Obama will begin a tour of Asia to promote his "pivot" to China. The aim is to convince his "allies" in the region, principally Japan, to rearm and prepare for the possibility of war with China. By 2020, almost two-thirds of all US naval forces in the world will be transferred to the Asia-Pacific area. This is the greatest military concentration in that vast region since the second world war.

In an arc extending from Australia to Japan, China will face US missiles and nuclear-armed bombers. A strategic naval base is being built on the Korean island of Jeju, less than 400 miles from Shanghai and the industrial heartland of the only country whose economic power is likely to surpass that of the US. Obama's "pivot" is designed to undermine China's influence in its region. It is as if a world war has begun by other means.

This is not a Dr Strangelove fantasy. Obama's defence secretary, Charles "Chuck" Hagel, was in Beijing last week to deliver a warning that China, like Russia, could face isolation and war if it did not bow to US demands. He compared the annexation of Crimea to China's complex territorial dispute with Japan over uninhabited islands in the East China Sea. "You cannot go around the world," said Hagel with a straight face, "and violate the sovereignty of nations by force, coercion or intimidation." As for America's massive movement of naval forces and nuclear weapons to Asia, that is "a sign of the humanitarian assistance the US military can provide".

Obama is seeking a bigger budget for nuclear weapons than the historical peak during the cold war, the era of Dr Strangelove. The US is pursuing its longstanding ambition to dominate the Eurasian landmass, stretching from China to Europe: a "manifest destiny" made right by might."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/17/nato-ukraine-dr-strangelove-china-us

PigletJohn, your friend's blog is a goldmine.
An account of a March through the city and a protest:

'Those marching at around 16:00 today chanted slogans including, ‘Ukraine/ Above All’, ‘Glory to the Nation/ Death to the Enemies’, ‘Glory to Ukraine/ Glory to the Heroes’, ‘Right/ Sector’ and ‘Bandera, Shukhevych/ Heroes of Ukraine...They also chanted ‘ACAB’ or All Cops Are Bastards, showing that they know the first three letters of the English alphabet very well...

...Once outside the Police HQ – they could have got there much quicker had they taken the most direct route, up Konovaltsa Street then onto Sakharova but obviously they needed to show they could appropriate the city centre – the Right Sector boys, men and two women initially faced the wall, as if they intended to piss up the police HQ. When the command came, however, they turned around and listened to the local leader, Vasyl Abramiv...'

'...Not a single local news report has mentioned the march through the city centre and this time there has not even been an attempt to sanitise or bowdlerise the slogans chanted. Pravy Sektor/ Right Sector is being normalised, even glorified, by the local media ...' [ very late today, 12 March, this report embedded a six-minute video made by Right Sector, while the whole article framed as a march by concerned citizens of Ivano-Frankivsk and activists, whereas it was exclusively Right Sector in reality.]

'... There are more volunteers patrolling the city alongside police than there are official police and other state organisations keeping peace and order in the city, according to this news report . There are 60 official police etc. while there are 70 volunteers, with forty of those from Self-Defence...'

'...However, the approach to getting your point across seems very much in the spirit of the post-revolutionary times where there is an evident degree of mob rule and rule by force. The problem is somewhat compounded by the local press which happily write that these activists speak, as the above-linked report wrote, ‘in the name of the city community’, becoming a local echo of Right Sector’s claims to speak ‘for the Ukrainian people’ An ex-student I encountered today outside the police HQ as she passed by from university on her way home said to me that “they don’t speak for us”, referring to Right Sector. While the issue of the police head was not something she had contemplated, she expressed great concern with the way local democracy was functioning. There is a clear contrast with the rather impressive local council meeting of 26 November 2013 when the still-functioning council took important decisions and voted in the open air, in front of a more representative group of the local community. However, now there is clearly a growing vacuum in local power structures, it seems that it is possible to seek to impose by force or by threats (the blockaders of the regional governor’s office have threatened to block major road routes in Ivano-Frankivsk region on Friday if their demands are not heard) decisions upon a weak, nascent administration

With the lack of evident structures of law & order in the city, too, it is possible for far-right organisations to march armed and unopposed through the city, while promising a much more radical ‘national revolution’ and preparing, as Abramiv said today, for war not only against Russia but also for battle against any authority deemed unsuitable. Although there was an appeal to the mayor to stop masked, armed groups from marching through the city, there is little evidence of them being stopped. And, sadly, there is little readiness for some kind of civil resistance to such groups – except perhaps from within a Self-Defence increasingly frustrated by the behaviour of Right Sector, although they Self-Defence – as argued above – are contributing to a degree towards mob-democracy. (This report includes them forcing at gunpoint the revolution on the city’s main market.)'

The issue of the head of police:
'Now, the question is why are there even people outside the police HQ today and what do they want? Well, it all started late last night when activists, largely from Self-Defence but also Right Sector, blockaded the building to stop the new head of police in the city, nominated by Ministry of Internal Affairs officials in Kyiv, from taking his post. They are opposed to Volodomyr Smich (literally, his surname means Laughter, so plenty of potential for jokes there). There are rumours that he was involved in initiating a trial against some activists involved in the initial protests in 2013.'

'This report states that initially today there were some fifty men all from Self-Defence (it also has better photos than me) blocking the street, while Right Sector also turned up in the early afternoon in smallish numbers before the big march around 16:00. Speaking to the press, the Self-Defence issued a statement stating that they do not want to have in a position of authority in the police a man who refuses for now to undergo lustration, i.e. a check on his past. Shortly afterwards, the new head of the regional administration agreed to make all administration workers undergo lustration and barred any ex-Party of Regions figures from taking up posts.'

'Torchlight procession: an update on Ukrainian ‘Social Nationalism’
2 March 2014

'A second news report has finally appeared in the local press on Friday evening’s torchlight procession, which I covered here. Writing about this subject during Russian troop movements in Crimea was a danger to Ukraine, according to some here. Well, a new local news report has finally appeared, with Blitz.info carrying the story today.

Its report is heavily redacted, mentioning only the mildest slogans – honouring dead local patriots and dead heroes more generally (“????? ? ????? ?????? ??????????!” ?? “????? ?? ????????!”). However, it does not seem comfortable giving any mention at all to even the more everyday slogan, evident on this, er, Mexican-Italian pizza and tequila restaurant below, for example, or in everyday conversation. Nor is it prepared to mention the more extreme, ‘Glory to the Nation/ Death to the Enemies!’

'The report does note, however, that leading the procession were representatives of the organisation Patriot of Ukraine (“??????? ???????”), whose ideology is ‘social-nationalism‘, whose followers have formed a Social Nationalist Assembly. You can read their programme on their website, only in Ukrainian of course, but it’s grim reading. They call for nationalisation of the entire economy, to be placed in the hands of the ‘Nation’, forming a ‘Nationocracy’, with an end to immigration ‘which weakens to nation’. They also want a Central European Confederation with Ukraine at the centre running from Baltic to the Caucuses, to be run through an openly ‘authoritarian’ system which does not recognise any religions or sects ‘whose main centres are outside Ukraine’.

'It is worrying that such an organisation, or Assembly, of organisations including Patriot of Ukraine, Pravy Sektor (Right Sector) and ‘Healthy Nation’ are mainstream in the city. Maybe not in terms of actual numbers of members, but they are most visible on the streets, forming the various self-defence units, which patrol the streets with police, or provide protection at various meetings. They are colonising the city space and the protests in this city, as they have done in Kyiv, which began as a civic expression of frustration and hopes for a European future.'

And your opinion is that Russia is entitled to invade, occupy and annexe its weaker neighbours.

Do you know how many US military personnel there are in Europe right now, PigletJohn?

"You cannot go around the world," said Hagel with a straight face, "and violate the sovereignty of nations by force, coercion or intimidation." As for America's massive movement of naval forces and nuclear weapons to Asia, that is "a sign of the humanitarian assistance the US military can provide".

Of course, the US corporate controlled military isn't involved in most African countries and would never violate another country's sovereignty, especially not Afghanistan, where they wanted to build a pipeline, nor Iraq, where they simply wanted to steal the oil. Nor is the US corporate military expanding its operations across the world, threatening peaceful countries. They just wouldn't do that, they would never attempt to engineer a coup of any sort and when that fails they'd never invade on a fictional pretext.

The massive American conglomerate who has bought holdings in Ukrainian agriculture of course have no say in US foreign policy. No, not Monsanto, they're called Cargill, it's easy enough to search using your engine of choice. Threats are coming from one side, and one side only.

The only hope is that soldiers refuse to deploy.

It has been very interesting to observe the line put out in Kremlin propaganda, and repeated by the pro-Putin lobby, that Ukraine (especially Kiev) is filled with neo-Fascists, right-wing extremists, and Nazi sympathisers.

The results of the recent Presidential election show that the much-trumpeted Right Sector, variously described by Russian sources as radical nationalist, neofascist, or neo-Nazi. (although the Associated Press reported in March 2014 that international news organizations had found no evidence of hate crimes by the group) received 1% of the vote

I don't like Putin but I admire him for doing the opposite of what the Americans expected, namely sitting back and withdrawing troops from Ukraine's borders.

The results of the recent Presidential election show that the much-trumpeted Right Sector, variously described by Russian sources as radical nationalist, neofascist, or neo-Nazi. (although the Associated Press reported in March 2014 that international news organizations had found no evidence of hate crimes by the group)

So this didn't happen? Right Sector thugs and football ultras didn't do that, contrary to eyewitness accounts?

No, absolutely not, no way

Ukrainian armed forces have shelled a school in Slavyansk and jets are bombing Lugansk. The Twitters have a hashtag #childrenofdonblass apparently.

The US is trying to isolate Russia. Unfortunately that won't work, Russian trade will just move east, as it's already doing. The recent oil and gas deal with China is a real threat to the dollar as it was done in rubles, so the day of the dollar as world currency is near its end. Expect the US to walk us blindly into another useless war, probably as soon as 2016.

Ukraine is very much a European problem.

The FT reports that Putin has "boxed himself into a corner."

His military adventures and expansions have fed the neo-Soviet nationalists, and the supply of arms, soldiers and encouragement to Easter Ukrainian rebels has created a self-perpetuating and somewhat uncontrollable monster and a patchy network of local warlords.

Now that a passenger jet has been shot down by the pro-Russians or his own people, he has created a great deal of enmity around the world. His ex-Finance minister has reported that capital outflows have eroded Russia's reserves, and the Rouble continues to be weak. Inward investment, and western partners, have dried up. If he cuts off oil sales, he turns off the tap that brings in money from the West.

They loved him when Russia snatched Crimea from Ukraine with overwhelming might, and his neo-Soviet supporters have been fed on propaganda from the state-controlled media, and lack knowledge and understanding of the outside world. They lapped up the idea that Ukrainians are a bunch of anti-Russian neo-Nazis, strongly pushed by the Russian state media. Having built up the image of Russia as a great power that needs no-one and can do whatever it wants, his popularity and power will plummet if he is perceived as backing down.

If it becomes known that by supplying heavy weapons to breakaway Ukraine he has turned the world against Russia, admiration for his brinksmanship may evaporate.

See also www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28421196

Sooner or later a form of peaceful co-existence between Ukraine and Russia will be needed.