Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

It's interesting that Putin decided to punish European countries which imposed sanctions for his military adventures in Ukraine.

He punished them by banning imports of their food and other products

seems to be working fine

yep, absolutely fine

It's interesting that Putin decided to punish European countries which imposed sanctions for his military adventures in Ukraine.

I'd like to see your 'proof' that Russian troops are in Ukraine. UN observers reported yesterday that they have seen no military incursion by Russia.

Also, those countries imposed sanctions on Russia. Did they really expect Putin to stand idly by? Russia is already looking to South America to buy fruit and veg, and to New Zealand to buy meat. The Eurozone is losing out by towing the American line. It's the typical short sighted neocon line, and it will fail unless they push us into a war, then the same few people will profit, like they do in all wars, and the rest of us will suffer.

Meanwhile Ukrainian troops are committing war crimes by shelling civilians in Donetsk.

"I'd like to see your 'proof' that Russian troops are in Ukraine."

hahahahaha

You already know that Russian troops occupied and seized the Crimea, part of Ukraine.

It's great that Putin still has unquestioning support from some.

Now here's a funny thing

28 July military leader Igor Strelkov (real name Igor Girkin) insists the rebels under his command will fight "to the end".

14 August The military leader of pro-Russian rebels in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, Igor Girkin - known as Strelkov - has resigned.

You should've mentioned you meant Crimea, which has been historically Ukrainian for hundreds of years. No, hang on, I meant since 1954. Of course Putin was always going to annexe Crimea. It's the only way to stop the US seizing control of Sebastopol. One more time, according to UN observers there is no build up of troops on the Russia/Ukraine border.

The sanction will hit Greece, Italy, Ireland, Britain, France, Germany, Sweden, Finland and others, to the tune of approx £16Bn. What is interesting is that we still supply them with military equipment. Another interesting fact is we still sell exactly the same military equipment to Ukraine.

I said Ukraine and I meant Ukraine.

What have you got to say about NATOs satellite pictures?

And the reports of newsmen accompanying the propaganda show convoy of half-empty army lorries, painted white, and driven by young men with clipped hair, army tattoos and matching khaki uniforms, touring around Russia, who saw armoured vehicles driving through gaps in the border fence?

"It should be noted that Russian spokesmen have denied a number of things in regard to operations in Ukraine which have turned out to be true."

aco.nato.int/statement-on-russian-main-battle-tanks.aspx

'Ah, there's no tricking an old wolf, is there?'

NATO are always reliable, aren't they. It's lovely to note they've kept quiet since Truthdig and others published photos proving machine gun fire brought down MH17. What's not so lovely is they're keeping quiet about Ukraine deliberately shelling civilians.

But they don't matter, do they PJ. They don't fit your neocon agenda. I almost feel sorry for people like you. Almost.

Ah, you love stories that support Russia, no matter how weak their source.

I see you have nothing to say about the satellite pictures and other evidence.

'Kiev in U-turn over claim that 'Russian tanks, artillery and 1,200 fighters' had been deployed in Eastern Ukraine as evidence fails to materialise'

...

'Muddled security officials in Ukraine were last night forced to deny a huge Russian military convoy had been deployed in the eastern rebel-run city of Lugansk.

The strong rebuttal suggested an earlier claim about an invasion by Vladimir Putin's troops amounted to a crude propaganda move by the pro-Western Kiev government - or deep confusion in its own ranks'

...

Rebel spokesman Kostyantyn Knyrik dismissed the reports as 'pure bluff' and 'lies'.

'There is no Russian column, and there never was. It is not the first time that the Ukrainian side makes such statements, and not the first time it is a miss. They seem to be passionate about these columns.'

Kiev is understood to have received 'advice' from Western spin doctors and 'PR specialists' , while Moscow also pays attention to an 'information war'.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2729647/Tanks-artillery-1-200-fighters-march-east-Ukraine-Russia-days-Putin-set-meet-Ukrainian-president-peace-talks.html

Still nothing to say about the satellite pics, then.

'Still nothing to say about the satellite pics, then.'

Yes, it has all gone strangely quiet about satellite evidence etc. Yats has said nothing and our investigative media don't seem to be asking any questions.

"The deafening silence of the US media and government about the investigation into the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 one month ago reeks of a cover-up."

World Sociaist Web Site - Why have the media and Obama administration gone silent on MH17?

JOKE OF THE DAY

Russia says that Russian paratroops captured in Ukraine were there by accident.

Ten paras. Wow, it's just like D-Day. Only bigger, obviously. Tbh, small squads are probably going in and out of Ukraine ferrying supplies to separatists, what with Ukraine cutting off their water.

just ten, you think

some of them have gone back home

"implausible deniability"

RT is reporting that around 4000 Russians are with the separatists, around 1000 are current or former troops. They've reportedly retaken Lugansk and Putin has urged the separatists to allow Ukrainian troops free passage which the self titled leader has agreed to.

They're also reporting, as are the BBC, that civilians are being shelled in Donetsk, which is currently encircled by Ukrainian forces. Whoever has done this has committed a war crime.

"RT is reporting"

It must be true, then.

...Sorry, my mistake

"Russia's ambassador to the European Union, Vladimir Chizhov, said Nato had "never produced a single piece of evidence" for its accusations.

He said the only Russian soldiers on Ukrainian soil were 10 paratroopers captured earlier this week."

Hahahahahahahahaha!

He's right that NATO have produced no evidence of Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine. Having seen an interview with the separatist leader I believe there are Russians fighting alongside them.

NATO are playing with fire by saying they'd be open to Ukraine joining. Their bases, along with US bases, already almost encircle Russia's borders.

no evidence apart from, for example, the satellite photos.

What's your comment on the repatriated bodies of Russian soldiers killed in action?

Lavrov has said that the satellite photos are from computer games.

I thought that maybe the meeting between Poroshenko and Putin might result in some sort of peace deal, but that stands no chance now.

It is obvious what is happening. The NATO meeting is coming up and the rhetoric will increase and now that Ukraine has talked about wanting to join NATO, things will get even worse.

According to quite a few reports, the separatists are having success near Mariupul and have a lot of Ukrainian troops surrounded. Putin asked them to let the troops go and the separatists have said they will if the troops leave behind their weapons, but Sky said that Poroshenko has not agreed.

I think it is getting serious for all of Europe because there are forces who may want a real war with Russia. It seems amazing and risky, but seems more likely.

People from across Europe are joining the anti Ukraine/NATO forces. Ukrainian soldiers are deserting due to getting no supplies from Kiev.

In related news, expect disrupted gas supplies this winter unless somebody pays Ukraine's gas bill, as the corporations who blew up the middle east to put pipelines in say a new one is 'not economically beneficial'. I feel for the ordinary Ukrainian citizens who will suffer when the IMF enforce austerity measures, benefits and pension cuts and privatisation of services as a condition of bail out. Once again the poor will pay to keep the rich rich. The American Dream in action.

There are lots of reports of protests in Ukraine. The Right Sector are saying they have been betrayed etc. When the gas is shut off and the economy collapses and the money runs out, the people of Ukraine will start blaming this small clique of oligarchs who have pursued this policy.

But, Western and European taxpayers will be asked to bail Ukraine out because Ukraine is important to the warmongers in their plan to do regime change in Russia and remove Putin.

But, I think some European countries like Germany in the end won't go along with the warmongers. They won't participate in the threats and finger wagging to Russia by some of the puppets because their publics will not go along with it.

If you look at the candidates for the new EU President, it spells bad news for good EU-Russia relations. A load of puppets mainly from Eastern European hawkish countries and a socialist luvvie who is the darling of the luvvies.

If yoy look at Putin's actions in trying to recreate the Soviet Union by force, that is the thing which spells bad news for good EU/Russia relations.

I wonder which will be the next country to suffer a Russian invasion.

'If you look at Putin's actions in trying to recreate the Soviet Union by force'

This is the spin that the spinners tell the public. The coup in Ukraine was backed by the EU. The puppets are all lined up in a row doing as they are told, as usual. They are trying to push NATO to the borders of Russia in Ukraine.

2000 people are dead in Eastern Ukraine. Water, gas and chemical plants are being shelled in an attempt to terrorize the local people and force them to flee. More than 100,000 refugees have already fled to Russia and others are fleeing to parts of Ukraine. A plane was shot down and the pro-Russian rebels and even Russia itslef was blamed by the Ukrainian puppet coup regime. But it has all gone quiet, the media has dropped it, no satellite data has been released.

The BBC show very little of what is happening because it is very serious and the puppets don't want the public to know that their EU taxpayer money is supporting what is happening.

But there was one statesman who told it like it is. He said

"The EU has blood on its hands in Ukraine"