ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

b/c this isn't a 'debate', soph, and i never saw it as that. this is a bunch of poxy hippie wannabes trying to be PC and posturing. it's a yawner and very typical of MN - although domini's the funniest troll this place has ever seen.

gee thanks expat.

i take it a bit more seriously than that

btw 3 billion dollars a year aid (before subsidised weapons, just cash) says america is deeply deeply embroiled. deeply implicated.

i know i'm shouting at myself again late at night, but all of you that are crying anti-semitism check this out by someone that is usually staunchly pro-israel, and jewish (i know you won't by the way but please please read it, is a good article).

gerald kaufman

in fact. i defy you to read that (v short) article and then talk to me about what you disagree with in it.

that is a gauntlet. i'm throwing it down.

BBC News is running a series of 'voices' from Lebanon and Israel

I thought this was quite an interesting POV from an Israeli ...

"The Left in Israel always said that if Israel withdrew from occupied land, the resentment and the terrorist action would stop. But it's not true.

We withdrew from Lebanon six years ago and from Gaza one year ago - and these are the two areas we are fighting in.

These people want to destroy us; they want Israel out of the Middle East. "

I applaud Kaufmann for speaking out as he will no doubt be attacked for it He is right though the Israelis have achieved nothing here and are slowly eradicating any sympathy they had with other nations.Apparently fire will step up from today-shocking

If Hamas were elected democratically, what he said about 'dependent on the US liking them' is true.

You could make a 24 hour newsflash about all of the horrendous things Hamas have done to Israel and it would really show people why they have gone bonkers this time. The BBC coverage is only showing what has been happening in Israel for years, except as the death & destruction are every few weeks it probably doesn't seem like a bombardment...

This quote I read recently did strike me as true

'Likewise, a Malaysian Muslim academic observed recently: "One political reality is key: no world order can survive if it is perceived as illegitimate by most of the world's population. Legitimacy cannot be owned by the U.S., or by the West.'

it strikes you as true that Israel is illegitimate UCM????

not its actions at present but its existence I mean

you know I don't know why I continue to read this thread, I really don't

No, not at all. I know my last post sounds contradictory.

One nation cannot decided how another nation is to be ruled if that disliked government is not to their liking, if that makes sense. So if Hamas is a democratically elected party, the people of Palestine wanted that. As Hamas have been persecutinging Israel for years, the Palestinians must have expected Israel no to take it sitting down, but that doesn't make it right IYSWIM.

And when you come out with comments like I don't know why I bother reading this thread you are doing exactly that, you are saying I am right you are wrong so your coments don't mean shit which in a bigger sense causes wars.

and I wasn't even thinking of Israel when I said I agreed with that statement, I was thinking of Hamas being elected. I will shut up now as everything I write on this thread seems to get interpreted as the opposite of what I mean.

but they haven't withdrawn from the occupied territories Twiglett. Oh yes, except for a tiny proportion of Gaza which they still have total control over by borders and air space.
Get real.

Twiglett its all your fault

Israel in its present form IS illegitimate Twiglett and therefore it will be hounded and hated until that stops.End of. If you steal land you cannot expect those you displace to lie down like dogs and accept it.They will fight back.

I really take offence at expat's comment that:

"this is a bunch of poxy hippie wannabes trying to be PC and posturing. it's a yawner and very typical of MN."

I think most posters on this thread agree that:

Israel's actions are disproportionate (to use political language)

That the US and UK's collabatation is shameful.

These two facts are so obvious to me that I can't comprhend how other non-partial people can't see them.

Most of us are appalled and sickened and terrified by what is happening. Nothing said here will change anything but I do find it reassuring to know that other people out there also see sense.

The fact that Israel enters the Eurovision Song Contest speaks volumes to me.

So i am a 'poxy hippie wanabee'? Expat, that really takes the biscuit. And how dare anyone make any generalizations about the USA eh? Hmmm. Pointless saying how you feel in this discussion, obviously. Parping myslef now, the whole thing is a disgrace.

Let's get something straight.

In many people's eyes a nation that has literally forced it's way into another nation's land through Zionist fascism AND because of the guilt felt by a bunch of post WWII statesmen is illigitimate. It will always be illigitimate as its very foundation is built on imperialist barbarity.

Having said that, most liberals are not concerned with Israel's foundation, that was nearly 60 years ago. They are concerned with it's present day atrocities and violations of human rights.

In many respects what Israel is doing now is a turning point. It is receiving world-wide condemnation which I think is long overdue. Of course the ones that can stop the barbarity sit and watch beacuse it is in their interest to see yet another Arab state turned into rubble.

Lets get something straight

Israel is a country. It has the right to exist. There has been a Jewish homeland there for millenia. It will always be legitimate. The fact that there was no such country as Jordan seems to totally, and conveniently, escape you

Just because you personally are anti-zionist does not make you right or in the majority. And it certainly doesn't make you a liberal

Agree to some extent Mud. Jordan was also created by the West. The whole Arab world was parcelled off and divided. But Jordanians are made up of people who were already there. Israel is a Western creation plonked in the middle of the Arab world.

And if it is true that according to Jewish teachings there can be no Israel until the arrival of the Messiah, if I was Jewish, that would trouble me greatly and tell me that Israel in its present form will never live in peace.

Jordan (originally called Trans-Jordan) is an Arab-"Palestinian" State. Jordan accounts for 3/4 of Palestine's original land mass. Though they may call themselves "Jordanians" they are culturally, ethnically, historically and religiously no different than the Arab-"Palestinians" on the "West Bank." Even the flag of Jordan and the flag of the proposed 2nd Arab-Palestinian state on the West Bank / Gaza look almost identical.

Missed the poxy hippy comment.Pathetic. Insults when someone disagrees with you.How can you insult others beliefs by calling it posturing and trying to be PC!

Ruty you are so right