ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

hub - thanks for the thorough replies.

I disagree with what you again about Hizbollah wishing to destroy Israel. Now, I am not a spokeswoman for Hizbollah but it is not a wild conclusion (nor indeed just MY conclusion !!) that the PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, etc were created in DIRECT response to Israeli human rights abuses and military activities.

Hizbollah was set up almost immediatley after 1982, a previous Israeli invasion of Lebanon. It was created to oust the occupying Israeli force, don't foget the israeli army sat inside Southern Lebanon for a good 16 years. The fear now is that they will do the same again. I think cause and effect are very important here and I am absolutely convinced that these organisations would not exist were it not for Israel's activities in the region.

Quite like the IRA or any other "terrorist" org. (I put it into quotation marks because excuse the cliche but "one man's terrorist org. is another's liberation movement"). They crop up whenever there is aggression and intransigence from a colonial or semi-colonial power. I am not justifying the activities of such orgs. just offering a political analyis or explantion for their existence !

My second point is that it IS true that power exists in different dimensions on the global scene, BUT large populations and access to oil wealth do not always bring political clout. Only a few in the region, notably the Sheikhdoms plus to a lesser extent Libya and Algeria, have access to such enormous wealth, the vast majority have large pops. but little oil/gas wealth: Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan all lack oil/gas reserves. I am not incluing Iraq or Iran - Iraq has a crippled economy although it has vast resources and Iran has vast resources but a huge. pop. so its oil wealth does not make the country particularly rich.

What I am saying is the VAST majority live off tourism and exporting primary products, such as dates and olives, not exactly the basis for great wealth !

Israel is very fortunate in that although natural resource poor, it is the single largest recipient of US aid in the world. That helps it buy a fantasic armoury ! Yes, it can still get attacked by rockets, but as I have said I find it improbable that it will get destroyed through Hizbollah rockets/slogans plus the other Arabs and Iranians have no desire/resources to go for an all out destructive war with Israel.

Real power these days comes in the form of WHO backs you within the international system and within the UN. You only have to look at the voting behaviour of the US and Britain in the UN to realise that the Arabs and Iran have no real clout, but Israel has masses of it. Read the UN resolutions re. this current conflict and it will be dead obvious who has the upper hand !

Thanks for the interesting debate !

SP - I'm sure I remembered seeing on the news some kind of statement of regret.

mimo - "The objectives of Hizballah, as derived from its February 16, 1985 political manifesto, include removing all Western influences from Lebanon and from the Middle East, as well as destroying the state of Israel and liberating all Palestinian territories and Jerusalem from what it sees as Israeli occupation, with no option for any negotiated peace"
Source

hi hub - I think we go back to the propoganda argument again !

What Hizbollah vows it will do and what it CAN do are very different things.

I appreciate you are probably more concerned with what it states it WISHES to do, I guess I am more interested in what it can and can't do, so I guess we won't get any further on this one.

Example: Labour Party Manifesto (now I am not suggesting the Labour Party is like Hizbollah although some of its leaders sometimes behave like terrorists !) There was lots of stuff in there that Labour said it would do, but very little of it has in actual fact been done !

hub - apologies eminating from the Israeli Govt./army are a good thing, BUT only if they vow not to repeat the mistake. What we have seen are repetitions of the same sorts of attacks so that Lebanese civilan casualties now stand at around 1000.

One mistake can be forgiven (although I doubt those who have lost children will find this easy) but not when it is repeated every day.

But mimo, it's such an extreme wish. Also, Hizbollah are firing rockets, supplied by Iran (does anyone dispute this?) and we all know how violent Iran's intentions are stated to be.

Israel gets supplied by its allies
Hizbollah gets supplied by its allies.

Indiscriminate rocket attacks kill xx number of Israelis
Targetted superior laser guided, intelligence led F16 and Drone missile strikes kill XXXX number of Lebanese

I mean the funding for the IRA at it's most "glorious" heights of attacking British soil came under extensive funding from the USA.

War and arms are always contentious - FWIW Iran is all mouth and no trousers at the moment militarily speaking and Mr Ahminadjad simply enjoys winding up the USA - his comments, while unwise are certainly taken out of context after translations on many occasions.

I think the USA's stated aims are far far more frightening than Irans stated aims, personally speaking.
Democracy, so vital for these poor nations?
Palestine and Lebanon have democratically elected goverments.
Saudi, Jordan Egypt Pakistan don't.
Can we expect them to be approached and coaxed into democracy sometime soon?

Hizbollah are firing rockets at Israel, Israel is firing more sophisticated artillery at Lebanon, amongst other things they've used poisonous gas... bodies are charred black on recovery.

Hizbollah have actually aimed their rockets at Israeli military bases, but they're rockets are not as sophisticated....

Did Israel apologise for Qana, I assume they also apologised for dropping bombs on the UN workers who were giving them their whereabouts whilst pleading not to be bombed....

The two sides are never going to think they're doing anything wrong.
Lebanon is being bombarded, the Lebanese are being killed indiscrimnately, what are they meant to do???

Heard a dreadful report last night about the curfew they have in Tyre. Israel has declared that they'll treat any vehicle as a legitimate target, so of course ambulances are having to negotiate to drive... with obvious results.

Was the IRA funded by individual american citizens or the government?

Depends on which conspiracy theory you believe bubble!

(Sorry, levity again on a serious thread...)

fantastic post piffle

What should Israel have done in response to the initial rocket attacks? Genuine question here, btw, I feel quite out of my depth on this thread and tend to ask seven year old's questions as a result.

Apologies to most well-read seven year olds.

there are those that would argue bubble that their soldiers shouldn't have been in lebanon where they were kidnapped.

there are those that would argue bubble that their soldiers shouldn't have been in lebanon where they were kidnapped.

Had Israel and Hizbollha stuck to both of the agreemetns of UN resolution 1559.
It is not JUST about Hizbollah disarming
Also Israel captured over 200 Lebanese prisoners during the 20 year occuaption of Lebanon.
These men have been detained without trial ever since, some were as young as 13 when taken.
These prisoners were to be released along with Hizbollah disarming and merging peacefully with the Lebanese army and participating in democratic process have laid down its arms.
Also the ongoing occupation of the Shabaa farms and the Golan Heights (Syrian obviously but even so, hugely influential given Hizbollahs head office is in Damascus.
The kidnap of the soldiers which sparked the initial Israeli mobilisation against Lebanon/Hizbollah was meant to act as a catalyst to force Israel to negotiate the release of the 200 prisoners.
When the first rockets were fired, Israel was already in the air over Lebanon, haviong made its intentions very clear.
You may also ask, what were Hizbollah expected to do?

The prisoners Israel have been holding included women and children not just men...

I understand that the kidnapped soldiers were to be exchanged for Lebanese prisoners, but what about the rocket attacks? Did Hizbollah launch those attacks before Israel started bombing?

Israel were mobilising on the border with tanks...
Thats when Hizbollah started firing rockets into the northern Israeli border
So yes technically one could argue they thew the first shot, but they were initially targetting the gathering army

Yes Fuzzy Quite right

Do you think Israel would have attacked if Hizbollah hadn't fired their rockets?

bubble - the IRA was funded by both US govt. orgs. and individuals.

Well the Israeli army was gathering at the Lebanese border, they were demanding their soldiers back, they weren't looking into negotiating the release of the captured women and children they've been holding for so long....

Dunno I can't think of an alternate reason for an army to start gathering at such a strategic point.....

Yes, the evidence shows that Israel had been planning a Lebanon invasion for quite a while. It was waiting for the right time to do it.

The Lebanon invasion has been particularly helpful to Bush/Blair and chums, as it is detracting attention away from Iraq and Afghanistan. The latter are not headline news any more. So you can draw your own conclusions about Israel's timing.