ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

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Here goes....

hub - I am so glad that this thread has ended (I hope !!) with a discussion of crepes - Where by the way is the wagon ? I would love to try these fantastic sounding crepes with my son !

I live near Hampstead in a very Jewish neighbourhood. I have good friends who are Jewish, my best friend is a Russian Jew. I think friendships can teach us the meaning of the word tolerance like no other !!

I hope DC doesn't mind me ending this note just like a tree-hugging, touchy feely, art farty student

By the way, I am new to this website, although I dabble on several others for my daily dose of politics, keeps the grey cells alive while looking after a 2 year old !

The wagon is on the opposite side of the High Street to the tube staion / MacDonalds. It is only about one minute down, just near a café and the David Culow opticians / Orange phone shop etc. There is a very small, French-style wagonette parked on the pavement keeping the local populus well-fed... Sounds like we live near each other !

Incidentally, depending on when your Russian friend came over I imagine s/he has a rich appreciation of some of the anti-semitism that Russian Jews experienced until relatively recently (I don't think it is still ongoing to quite the same degree; I certainly hope not). Welcome to MN btw.

pd - In addition to scale and quality of suffering, I'd also add frequency of suffering too. Routine attacks, even when perhaps relatively 'small' in terms of their toll on human life, can also have devastating impact on the psyche and popular sentiment in subtly different ways to one-off attacks with higher fatalities.

hub - yes I am aware that one of the reasons Jews from Russia have been leaving the country to go to Israel or elsewhere is anti-semitism. I had read about it before meeting her - I remember our history teacher going on about anti-semitism in Russia and Trotsky being a Jew which is one of the reasons Stalin hated him and sent him over to Latin America where he later had him assassinated with an ice pick !

Funny how I remember the most horrid details from school

The same history teacher (an extremely intelligent New Yorker, a Catholic) took us on a school trip to show us real footage of the Allies liberating the Nazi concentration camps. I was about 15 at the time. I remember feeling very very shocked and quite ill, it was a terrible thing to watch bodies piled on each other and the survivors looking like they were near starvation.

I also remember seeing the prisoners taken by the Serbs on TV during the Balkans Wars in the 90's and how it reminded me of the concentration camp images.

I think all school children should be taught about the atrocities committed by Hitler. But it is also important that we should teach them about other atrocities, including the ones we the British perpetrated in our former colonies and still commit today in the Middle East.

Only today they said one of the American soldiers in Iraq who has been arrested with several others for raping a 14 year old Iraqi girl and then murdering her along with her entire family, has ADMITTED to the rape and murder in graphic detail in court. It made me feel sick listening to it on my car radio.

Oh and thanks re. directions to crepe wagon ! I thought it was a coffee stand, have seen it many times from the car, we were there the other day eating dim sum in one of the Chinese restaurants !

The Chinese place has a water feature near one of the tables which kept DS very amused and unusually quiet while he ate his noodles and rice I recommend the Chinese place to parents of lively toddlers !

h2d, I agree with the frequency bit, too.

mimo, we should also teach our children that other humans, although different from us in some ways, are humans, too.

And in fact we should respect for all life, and for our environment.

PD - spot on about the human aspect. It is easy to forget in this day and age that the images of dead bodies we see on our screens (sometimes I have to take my son out of the TV room while I watch the news so that he doesn't see the corpses covered in sheets - he is too young) are of humans slaughtered like cattle.

Just heard Galloway's clip on skynews website.

He made a telling point: Israel's supporters like Murdoch think that Israeli blood is more valuable than Arab blood. The proof is that Skynews does not know the name of even one of seven Palestinians slaughtered on the beach by Israel. However, it remembers fondly the name and family history of every one of the three Israeli soldier that has been taken prisoner.

PD - Murdoch is a t*er of the first order. The trash he produces is just like Fox News.

Hub - I have a question which I hope you do not take to be confrontational, it's just a way of finding out more about Israel because I have never been there, only read things and talk to my friends about it.

Both of my Russian Jewish friends and my Arab Jewish friend say that often recent Jewish immigrants to Israel are treated like second-class citizens. They say one of the reasons they left Israel (all 3 of them used to live there before coming to the UK) is this division among Jews of different backgrounds.

Would you (or anyone else of a Jewish background) agree with this, that there are divisions within the Jewish faith and that different Jewish immigrants from different countries receive different treatment within Israel ?

I knew a beautiful young Russian Jewish man a few years ago, who had lost his leg doing his military service in Afghanistan, a year before the Russians pulled out.

I just heard the news, about two American soldiers who killed a family, a five year old girl and her parents, and raped and killed a fourteen year old girl from the same family. the whole family wiped out. i just don't know what to say anymore. I have never felt so deeply ashamed of being British, and being seen to be the USA's ally in Iraq.

that is ironic peacedove , since Murdoch owns Sky. I personally will not have Sky in my house as I regard him as a vile megalomaniac.

Don't like Galloway but on this point I do agree with him.

donnie - Sky News is like "the Sun" in digital format !

ruty - the Russians have alot to answer for that bloody invasion of Afghanistan in 1980. I remember at the time the Russians actually said, "the Afghans have INVITED us in to help them sort out their problems", like, yeh, right, they invited you in to murder 1000's of Afghans and the Afghans are too stupid to sort out their own problems !

ruty that story (US soldiers in Iraq) is horrific. These are the values the US wants to spread . They need to educate themselves before they tell the rest of the world how to live.

mimo - don't find your question at all confrontational; unlike pd's 4:32 post which I do !

I am so, so, so not an expert on contemporary Israeli life, but to address your point... firstly, Israel is a melting pot of different religions. This presents its own challenges. Secondly, re: Jews in Israel, there are Jews from all over the world there - of varying colour, degrees of observancy, nationality etc. and this can give rise to conflict too.

In the same way that not all 'Londoners' have much in common (aside from living in London), sometimes Jews in Israel can have little apart from their religion in common, and even this 'common thread' can be wildly different - one person might be very very orthodox another more or less completely 'lapsed'.

Re: differential treatment. I don't know about that. I imagine, like in any country there are those who are predjudiced against those who are 'new'. With the collapse of communism, there has been considerable immigration into Israel by Russia and my understanding is that they are sometimes tarnished with accusations of having brought in corruption or mafia-like aspects to Israeli life. How much of this is true and how much of this is racist / nationalist rubbish I have absolutely no idea. I imagine similar sentiments to 'Eastern Europeans steal British jobs' type stuff can be seen over there but with an Israeli twist !

hth.

PS - It is a totally amazing country to visit for people of any religion. There are many utterly ancient and incredible sights to explore and learn about; it would make an unforgettable holiday !

hub - thanks for the honest reply

I would like to visit Israel one day. It is one of the most ancient regions of the world and even an old atheist like me can learn a thing or two about history going there, I am sure !

I don't think PD was trying to be that aggressive, just may be highlighting the outrageous bias of Murdoch's media ?

I hope so any way, PD, I am sure you can reply for yourself ?

mimo and hub. i counselled an elderly russian jewess that had experienced grave prejudice on moving to israel to the point that she was seeking asylum in the UK.

saadia - it is truly disgusting. US and British behaviour is creating so much more hatred in these countries and we are all going to see the awful consequences of it all for years to come.

sophable - I have heard similar things from my Russian friends, so just wanted hub's view on it as I was worried that may be I wasn't hearing the whole story.

having said that i don't see the relevance really, except that it illustrates the illusory nature of a unified jewish israel and the fact that people are always capable of demarcating 'the other' in order to feel safer in themselves. the irony i suppose is that this idea is central to the oppression that jews have suffered for centuries.

sophable - quite agree with your analysis.

I don't really see what's confrontational about PD's post, tbh. He mereley points out that Sky News consider Israeli casualties important enough (human enough, enough like "us") to name, while not bothering to humanise Lebanese casualties.

Should he not have noticed that? Is it confrontational to mention it? Is it just an oversight on Sky's part, just one little slip in otherwise excellent coverage, or is it indicative of their reporting of the conflict? (I have no idea, I don't watch Sky)

Just seen on the news how resourceful the aid agencies are at getting supplies into Tyre, which is now completely isolated and under Israeli curfew. I am just constantly amazed and humbled by how there are people in the world who put their lives on the line to go all over the world and help strangers who are in trouble - whether it be due to natural or man-made causes.

the news tonight.

Yes, I think in the context of anti-semitism one also needs to highlight Islamophobia, which is probably what PD as a Muslim (it seems so any way from the few posts I have read from him) is always pointing to.

People forget that in this country we still have pubs called the "Saracen's Head" - I used to think it meant something else until a ME historain told me that the Christian Crusaders called the Turkish Muslims "Saracens" (which means heathenish or foreign), much like the word "barbarian". So one can only imagine what the Saracen's HEAD means ! Nice !

Some say Islamophobia is on the rise, in fact Islamophobia has been around in Europe for centuries.

israel say war may continue 'indefinitely'.

bombing beirut.

i just don't know what to say about this anymore.

I agree sophable. Looks like things are going to get much worse before they, hopefully, if ever, get better. So many innocent lives are yet to be lost.