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Original poster

ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

750 replies

UCM · 27/07/2006 23:53

Here goes....

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 01/08/2006 16:13

sorry i can't help it, lmao at uwila's liberal media apart from Fox News comment.

that is funny. and tragic.

Uwila · 01/08/2006 16:58

So, sophable, even though you have lost all hope for me, I still like you. There is no reason I can't be friends whith some who doesn't agree with my political views.

Where are you? I bet if we went to a meet up for drinks we'd have fun.

Heathcliffscathy · 01/08/2006 17:02

that's so weird. i was just stalking your sw london meetup thread and thinking....hmmm, cd might go, but if i said i wanted to they'd all drop out and change the date secretly!!!!

am pmsl

am v glad for your post.

i take it you saw mine earlier on (not the raging rabidly furious ones the one where i basically say the same as you just did).

Heathcliffscathy · 01/08/2006 17:03

object lesson here. if me and uwila (ffs) can see past our differences, there is actually hope for the middle east! i really really believe that btw. we have diametrically opposing views on almost anything.

except that i think we both quite like a bit of straight talk.

ruty · 01/08/2006 17:04

yes sophable i did wonder. 'Apart from Fox news' is a bit like saying 'Apart from Tony Blair I really like the UK government.' Hmmm.

saadia · 01/08/2006 17:04

"Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews." -

is this an accurate definition Mud and Sillyrabbit?

NettoFabulous · 01/08/2006 17:07

I may be wrong, but I thought Hitler WAS in favour of the Homeland for the Jews, and therefore a Zionist?
Not that that makes zionism = fascism. They are differnt things, however many traits you may see in common.

Heathcliffscathy · 01/08/2006 17:08

it was more Fox News as a bastion of unbiaised and rigorous journalism informing the American people that i was choking over.

f8cking fox news. ffs.

ruty · 01/08/2006 17:10

gosh a lot happened between me reading sophable's fox news post and me posting!glad you two have made up. i would never dare go to a meet up anyway - too nervous.

Heathcliffscathy · 01/08/2006 17:12

we haven't made up. we're just obviously both of the ilk of mner that can be at each other's throats on one thread and nice as pie on another. just has happened on same thread. the whole point is that differing views do not mean that people can't co-exist or even like each other as people. and blo*dy hell do we have different views.

i wish i could be as confident that everyone on mn could be like this.

actually am going to start a thread.

Uwila · 01/08/2006 17:15

Ruty, it's not the same thing because fox is one of many news channels and Tony blair is the leader. Now, if you likened fox news to one average mp, then that would be similar.

Actually, Fox news, and the whole Fox network, is a relatively new kid on the block. ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN... they have all beenaround much longer. And that is only the telly. Many many many news sources to choose from in the states.

Uwila · 01/08/2006 17:17

ooooo... come to our meet-up!!! Aug 31st in Kew.

I don't bite... really.

SillyRabbit · 01/08/2006 17:57

NettoFabulous - no, you completely wrong. Hitler said there is no place on Earth for Jews.

Saadia, I wouldn't word Zionism like that. More like ... a homeland for the Jews in the form of the State of Israel. (sorry, I've not looked up the official definition - I've got kids to look after). Isreal includes more than Jews in her population. Now the treatment of the Palestians/nieghbours is another issue. One can be a Zionist and dispute the Israeli borders (as many do!) Gotta go...

mimoyello · 01/08/2006 19:30

Mud - if you are a Zionist (you sound like one) then say so. Why beat around the Bush (excuse pun) ?

mimoyello · 01/08/2006 19:40

Zionism is not just about "let's build a homeland" whether in ideology or in practice.
You are a fool if you think that is what it is about.

Of course if you are a pro-Israeli Jew or pro-Israeli full stop, then you will always say anyone who equates fascism with Zionism is an ignorant anti-semite (the Arabs are also semites by the way, therefore anti-semite itself is an inaccuarte term).

mimoyello · 01/08/2006 20:12

Hitler expounded a theory of "racial purity" and both advocated and practiced a German "Heimland" free of all non-Germans. All racially non-Germans were treated as second-class citizens (at best) or eliminated (at worst).

Isn't the State of Israel petrified of the constantly "breeding" Arab who will one day take over the Jewish population in numbers ? Doesn't the State of Israel find Arabs genetically and racially inferior to the Jew ?

Now doesn't this sound so very very familiar ?

lisalisa · 01/08/2006 22:11

Message withdrawn

ruty · 01/08/2006 22:24

Uwila i was thinking more along the lines of the bias Fox news has and who runs it, and the influence this had [reporting his first 'win' prematurely and possibly influencing the true outcome] on the political outcome.

saadia · 01/08/2006 23:10

Israel is saying the campaign will continue for another ten days. How on earth does Blair expect peace to emerge from this?

Kiskidee · 01/08/2006 23:57

if it means emptying out the entire country, we will pacify

Kiskidee · 01/08/2006 23:59

(ooops, new keyboard)

it means: we will pacify Lebanon even if it means emptying out the entire country.

Heathcliffscathy · 02/08/2006 00:14

lisalisa, one of my tutors at college (i'm studying to be a psychotherapist) went to a lecture once by a venerable israeli analyst. the basic premise of what he was saying was that he was disturbed and disheartened at a very deep level about the fact that he felt that the israelis were becoming more and more the 'camp guards' (his words). what he meant by this was that in many ways because of what happened to the jews in WW2, they were doing the same as what had been done to them. if you think about the intergenerational patterns of abuse, it makes a lot of sense just on a grand scale. the abused has become the abuser.

what is the wall if not redolent of ghettos that were created to keep in the despised jews? aren't some areas of gaza like concentration camps in that movement and freedom and life is stamped down on.

i know that you are likely to shreik 'anti-semitism' and talk about the sanctity and inviolability of what happened in WW2.

sorry, but the irony and tragedy was not lost on the israeli psychoanalyst, nor is it on me.

ruty · 02/08/2006 08:24

i have to agree sophable. It is something I thought myself.

Mud · 02/08/2006 08:55

mimoyello - unfortunately I am about to be distilled into the lowest common denominator so I'll try to keep this short - what a stupid stupid series of postings - please do yourself a favour and try to find out what facism means and then what zionism means and then please come back to the discussion

Sophable - yes I think that's an interesting proposition but I think it might be short-sighted to leave it at the holocaust. The immediate attack on the new state by the surrounding Arab countries, the Yom Kippur war, the 6-day war etc these histories of violent attack also have bearing on current (and IMO completely abhorrent) actions

Mud · 02/08/2006 08:57

if anyone actually is interested in finding out more about the history of the region and background to the current crisis

\link{try \link{http://www.mideastweb.org/about.htm\mideastweb) for a balanced (Arab AND Israeli) history of the region