New thread re Roy Meadow (no Sir!)

[Janh]

Cheeseball, specially for you, yet another thread but without the Sir! (I'll post a link from the 2nd thread).

If what we are doing here is being radical busybodies then I am proud to be one! I am so sorry your husband feels like this and won't help you escape from the burden you are under.

Many of our MPs have now seen some details of Bunglie's case which we have forwarded to them and not one has said "you shouldn't be talking about this, you are breaking the law". Those gagging orders are so wrong and will surely be overturned before long. If you have to wait until they are before you can do something about your own case then so be it - he is wrong to be so angry with you about something that wasn't your fault but you are the one who lives with him and we can't tell you what to do.

If you get a chance do think about ringing Bunglie, you don't have to tell her your name or any details at all but I'm sure it would make you feel so much better (unless the guilt at doing it made you feel worse...)

Back to being serious; If they offered your dh's custody and to 'set them up' what did they think you were going to do? That does not really make much sense to me, sorry I am not questioning your honesty but I can see your point Bunglie that it was made for the benefit of the court, but surely they can not have trusted your dh not to have contact with you. Am I getting the wrong end of the stick?

bunglie, just a quick message to say I am so glad your ds replied to your letter so soon and I hope you get to meet him in the very near future.

I am going off line for a bit, I am going to check through some papers and maybe able to answer you queeries, re MSBP. I THINK I have it written down somewhere what the symptoms are and how a diagnosis is reached. The one thing I do remember is that it was professor Roy Meadows who 'coined' the phrase, dispite not being a psychiatrist, just a peadiatrician. That has always seemed a bit odd to me.
I shall see what I can find out, but am I correct in saying that MSBP does exist but only in a VERY small number of people, nothing like the 5000 cases that Meadow's diagnosed.
I know that it is something you can't 'fight'. If you show concern you are over anxious if you do not you are neglectful. In short the ss could turn around anything you did to fit the profile so they were always going to win. I think that this is the reason that it was used so profusely in cases where the ss were concerned about the welfare of a child because they knew that they could not loose.
Back later, and thank you again for your suport and help in contacting my ds. I am so happy that you helped me 'take the plunge' and contact him. The hurdle will be meeting him and telling him the truth. So I still have a long way to go, but the silence has been broken and we have contact.

Bunglie, ok just want to say that yes it was me that suggested that you write your memoirs months ago. I really think that you would find it cathartic and without counting how many people join in this thread (without knowing how many just read it) there are quite a few that would like to see it written and read it. I also though that it may be a really truly special gift for your children. In so far as meadows/msbp is concerned think (dont know) that there are also many other 'diagnoses'(poo poo!!) that have been used to destroy these women and childrens lives. I know that the DH's lives have been destroyed too but they have not been held accountable, from my limited knowledge there are the shaken baby syndrome and sudden infant death syndrome and Daddies must have been around for them too. I cant believe that men play such a small part in caring for their kids and then are not even accountable in these cases. What does anyone else think.

In so far as another thread is concerned, i may not post all the time but i read the thread obsessively and post when i a) have something i think is valuable to add and b) when i cant shut myself up!!!

Ok another awful thing to admit but most of us people have short memories,( I AM ASHAMED TO SAY!!) we spend our time wrapped up in our own little lives and forget about other. A very English thing i think, anyhow i got into this thread purely because it was so active and i was being nosey not because of the title. If you want to get the issue across to more people and therefore get more support perhaps we need a stronger eyer catching thread.

Suggestions (that are relatively clean and wont cost too much in the swear box) are

ONE MANS DEVASTION OF SO MANY LIVES
INJUSTICE * MEADOWS AND THOSE THAT FIGHT ON!!!
MUMS AND CHILDRENS LIVES DEVASTED BY ENGLISH LEGAL AND MEDICAL PROFESSIONS
ONE AMAZING WOMENS FIGHT FOR HER CHILDREN AND HER NAME
FIGHTING BACK FOR JUSTICE

I COULD KEEP GOING BUT I THINK OTHERS WILL COME UP WITH BETTER SUGGESTIONS.

Also whilst im venting ......

Why is MSBP a women only disease, apart from the possibility that it was invented by a wowen hating man.

Does anyone know any history behind this W*** does he have kids, was he brought up by an evil mother or what is it all about. How can one man cause such enormous devastation? G-d im so angy.!!! Does anyone know an emoticons for angry ^^^XXXXXX^^ will have to do for now!!!#

If your blood isn't boiling enough, how about this...I spoke to a primary school teacher friend of mine yesterday. She said that they had had to get two siblings put into care yesterday, but had to do it by calling the police. She said that they have been concerned about these two for 2 years now and making appropriate reports to social services for 1 year. She said that the children (particularly the brother) regularly come to school dirty, half dressed and covered in bruises and cuts. They are petrified of their grandfather who is their carer (parents both dead). As of Friday, after one year of reports to ss, the school finally called the police as ss had not yet even done ONE home visit. This is in one of the wealthiest areas in London! I thought ss was supposed to be on the ball now after the Victoria Clumbie death.
Funny how this same social services has time to diagnose msbp in innocent mothers.
Unfortunately my friend is not willing to go public as she is afraid of jeapordizing her job (and probably as she too has two small children, she is afraid of ss turning on her too).

We could call the new thread "Roy Meadows, misdiagnosing MSBP" so that if new people looking for support do google searches online they might be able to find the thread. Perhaps we could ask Tech to put backwards links to the other threads so that new readers can follow the whole story.

Bunglie, could I just say that every single person I have told about your story and the whole sad meadows fiasco has just expressed horror and sadness for his victims. Not one single person has even whispered a hint that they might think that any of the mothers could possibly be guilty. I know a lot of very outspoken people who wouldn't think twice about stating opinions regardless of their political correctness. I think you would be surprised at how much belief and support you would get in the story of your life. The only thing anyone has ever questioned is can this really be happening in a first world country in 2004?

Blood boiling oh my god has anyone read the article What legacy now by Robert Whiston i simply cannot believe that people can write so much and not even question their own opinions it is beyond belief that seemingly intelligent people do not 'think outside the box' is that the phrase and does anyone know what im talking about

Munchausen Syndrome hub - lots of links, I have to go out so haven't read any yet.

O.K. I am back! A little bit worse for wear, I needed a stiff drink when I re-read the judgment so I am a bit squify, otherwise I would not be able to tell you the following.

This is taken directly from the judgment (of which I have a transcript). I was in two minds whether to post this. Believe me I am feeeling very squiffy and I could not post this if I was feeling sane! (Cheeseball, fingers have left me and I am struggling to press te right keys, but I think this is due to intoxication rather than sanity)

Oh god I think I am a bit drunk!!

The followng is taken from exactly what the judge said;

He came up with six points as to diagnose me as to whether I have MSBP, based on Prof. Meadows definition as to what MSBP is and as to whether I suffer from it.

Ooh dear I am a bit squiffy! Here goes;

1.Did the mother do something to harm the child?
2.Did the mother deliberately exacerbate or fabricate her own illness or that of the child?
3. Is she truthful or is there a degree of distortion or exageration of her own or her daughters medical condition?
4. Is she emotionally labile?
5. Is she attention seeking, manipulative and egocentric?
6. Is she prone to fantasies and deceptions?

"My findings to all these questions must be in the affirmative and therefore I find that the mother suffers from the personality disorder known as Munchausen-Syndrome-By-Proxy, as described by Dr Meadows"

Please could someone explain to me what a labile personality is?

I realise that this is just the judges decission with regard to me. In his summing up he critisized my husband for not being stronger and said that he had been 'wronged' by his wife and yet still found the necessity to stand by her, to the detriment of his children and must therefore be a weak man. My dh is anything but weak in both an emotional and physical way.

Perhaps this illustrates how the courts were taken in by the ss and the information that my 'step-monster' gave them just added to their decission that I was a bad mother. I do believe that even without my 'step-monsters' input I would have lost because they had already decided that I was a sufferer of MSBP prior to the court case and prof. Meadows report was written without meeting me or any of my doctors and he wrote his report 14 months before the wardships final hearing and he was not going to change his mind.

Oooh dear I think I need to lie down for a bit!!! I will be back to re-read what I am about to post and add to it if necessary. I am sorry but I needed something to enable me to read the judgment.

From a very squiffy Bunglie !!!

Has Helen Hayward-Brown been mentioned? This website is about her investigations into MSBP for her social sciences doctorate. There is also a comtact email for her. Might be helpful?

Ooh Bunglies been sick and feeling better, no sympathy deserved as it was all self-inflicted.

Thank you Janh, I have glanced through and three common things jump out at me.

1. The mother often endears herself to medical staff, is very helpful and often has a medical background.

2. The mother has often been a victim of abuse and is in need of vast amounts of attention and sympathy and uses her child to get this.

3. Although they may apear to be highly intelligent, this intelligence is often unfulfilled and they have difficulty with identifying fact from fantasy especially with regard to the histories of the child victim.

I hope that I am not like this but I would be silly if I said that this kind of abuse did not occur. As I have said previously it seems that it is VERY VERY rare but it does exist and it was not Professor Roy Meadows who identified this syndrome, as it was identified in the US previous to its identification by Meadows in the late eighties here in Britain. I think that I have interpretted the iformation correctly, but please do correct me if I have got anything wrong.

A very sober and delicate Bunglie says sorry for her earlier 'squiffy' (sp) posting, but found it very difficult to read what the judge had said without a little 'dutch courage'. She has definetly learnt her lesson. Sorry

OMG - I have just realised that I have told you what the judgment says.
Not only have I seriously broken the court order but I don't blame any of you thinking that I am like that. Because after all if a Judge has decided that that is the case then I do not blame anyone for thinking that there is some truth in it.

I can only give you my word that I did nor have I ever done anything to harm either of my children.

I think I am on the verge of 'hitting the bottle' again if I did not feel so sick. UhG!
I am really sorry if you feel I have misled you in anyway, I feel awful about this now. Just because the Judge said this about me please do not assume that the same things were said to Cheeseball or postsue.

Calm down Bunglie!

It must have taken a lot out of you to read back through what the Judge had written. I for one do not blame you for having a drink.

I can only speak for myself but I do not think of you any differently, if anything I think that the miscarriage of justice has been even greater. You certainly do not come across as fitting this profile and I doubt very much that anyone else will think so either.

I think that mothers are targetted because they are the main carer and women are supposed to be more emotional than men. If all these women are guilty then why do their husbands stay with them? They must know these women better than anyone and for them to 'stick' by them despite the loss of their children leads me to believe in Bunglies and others innoscence.

I think your 3 points summarize it all very well Bunglie. Boy-I wish I could manage what you do, when 'feeling delicate'!!

You Must write a book Bunglie, Anyone know any publishers??

I hope you feel better soon, and you deserved a bit of sympathy dispite the cause. (I hope you left some in the bottle to celebrate with your ds?)

I don't believe in MSPB. And I can think of several reasons why only women are ever diagnosed with it. Firstly, I believe it is part of a long and undistinguished history of mysogyny in law and medicine. Women used to be 'diagnosed' as witches. They were beleived to be capable of all kinds of supernatatural wickedness. The fact that witches don't actually exist didn't prevent the diagnoses being made with absolute confidence. And whatever the women did to deny the accusations, just 'proved' their guilt ever more effectively. Men were never witches. Just women. Later on, women were 'diagnosed' as 'hysterics' - again, a women-only diagnosis. Doctors decided that women were made ill, bad and unreliable because of their wombs. Now we have MSBP. Of course I believe in child abuse. But if we're talking about abuse, let's talk about abuse. Being attentive, caring etc IS NOT A CRIME. To 'diagnose' women instead of looking for real evidence of harm caused to children seems to me totally akin to a witch-hunt.

And of course, the reality of life is that women are the primary care-givers, particularly for young children. It is hardly suprising that they take the children to doctors, are concerned about them, first spot the symptoms of illness, press for medical care etc. It's hardly a reason to accuse mothers of MSPB!

I do not believe that any 'syndrome' with such vague and general 'symptoms' can possibly have any validity. Look at the things said about Bunglie - they are insults not a diagnosis. And they were also plain wrong. She did - and does - have an illness. The rest all came out of that.
One drug - cisapride - caused babies to stop breathing. Did the doctors look at the drug? No, they looked at the mothers - how convenient to have someone to blame.
I think the whole thing is utterly wicked, I really do.

BTW Bunglie - I'm totally thrilled your son has texted you again. I want you to meet him soon!

Bunglie i have not finished reading the thread by did not want to waste any time whatsoever in posting back a reply that hopefully will make you feel a little safer and confident in your posting i think i speak on behalf of most on this thread YOU DO NOT NEED TO WORRY YOU ARE WITH FRIENDS HERE we believe you, we believe in you and you are ok.

It must have been awfully painful to have re- read those papers and a bit squiffy is more than excusable. im going go back and read the rest of the posting but please dont panic. We are not judging you, you have had enough of that in your life.

JUST CAUGHT UP WITH THE THREAD (NEEDED TIME OFF)

Oooooooooppppppp just realised its all in caps too................I think i have had too much to drink tooooooooo.

Seriously, bad time at the mo. 13 years to the day since my arrest. i am counting the hours too. Phoned bunglie friday night in a complete and utter state. was a quivering blob of jelly feelin sh*t. Thanks a million bunglie

I think MSbP exists but in a one in a million though, not as affluent as Meadows, Southall etc have claimed. I could not imagine intentionally hurting any child to gain attention for myself, I do not have any confidence in the jusicial system. Bunglie i would love to know what planet the judge in your case was on, because it most certainally was not earth.

I think family judges need some sort of extra training in family matters but then i could get into the legal arguements all night. Our current society seems to sweep the open neglect under the carpet but jump in with both feet to remove a happy loved child from a stable and healthy home enviroment, for the most pathetic reasons or suspicions.

Cheeseball i am glad to see you posting again and keep on when u feel u can.

The protest was solem (can not spell again), all the mothers i spoke to had very similar stories to Bunglie and me. It was very emotional and i was exhausted both physically and emotionally when i returned.

Drinkung a very very very hot cup of tea, gonna ask dh to make me another one if i can come off the computer.

I feel a long posting coming on...excuse the spelling.

As i posted when i joined, in March of 1991 the ss and police took my darling daughter away from me. 1 day before her birthday, 2 days before mothers day. I do not know what hurts more to miss her special day or mine. I feel selfish thinking of myself......... At the moment i think i am allowing myself to go through the emotions of 13 years ago, i do not remember the time without my baby. All i could see was emptymss, blackness, no future, but thete wa sthis little sparkle in the distance and i knew if i focused on that i could reach it and start pulling myself towards it. Like others my husband was told he could leave me and have our child, but he decided to stand by me. (still can not figure out why) (ah well)
I am just re-living the horrors and nightmare of my arrest (13 years exactly in 2 hours 15 mins.), the night in the police call, my baby all alone, not knowing what was going on, alone.

please tell me if you had a child laying in a bed, bruised from grabbing at her stomach, pinching and crying it hurts, what would you so??? With hindsight i would have acted differently, but i can not change the past. I have to live with my actions. If i knew then what i know now then ????????????????????

I did a very silly thing. I gave my dd an over the counter painkiller, 1 tablet in the morning and 1 later in the day, (trying to not really identify myself). That is the basis of the MSbP diagnosis. I had never before came to the attention of the ss of health officials. After the doctors, police and ss concluded that i was a very significant danger to my daughter they kept me locked in a cell till they had an emergency protection order in place. During the 3 weeks bail i had been granted, the powers that be trawled all through my daughters records, spoke to family and friends and pulled my life apart. I know that i was stupid but i made a mistake, i did not intentionally harm my dd to make her sick, to induce symptoms, keep her in hospital and gst attention for me..................i can remember not wanting to be at the hospital, the police had to wait til 10:30pm to arrest me. Some of the professionals involved in my case made false statements, but i did not have a leg to stand on. They backed me into a corner. My GP and Health Visitor (think i saw her 3 tiimes or something like that)blatently lied to the police and SS in their statements to, i think COVER THEIR OWN ARSE.

As you can gather things are very tender at the moment. 9th March is DD's birthday, i'm so down i can not even think of what to do for that day.................have to get myself out of this.................it is tearing me up.............think i know how i felt when it all happened but have always blocked it out to function...........................I am going to have a very stiff drink...............put another prospective on it.......................even if it is warped or swaying................:0:0:0:0

postsue, my heart goes out to you and to your dear daughter too, do you have any savings? Do you think you could all go away somewhere, somewhere very different to where your lives are for the next few days, to try to live a few days together. Go to the beach if you live in the city or the other way round. It seems to me that you need to hold onto what you've got today and make me the most of it. Stick two fingers up at the bastards that put you through it and scream at the world were only the sea or a train can hear you. Hold your daughter and celebrate mothers day with her somewhere special for you and sending you huge hugs (((())))) and to try to perk you up.

Beetroot - do you mean recently? There was this one , but it was quite a while ago.

Postsue, my heart goes out to you today. You have such beautiful, beautiful children (I was lucky enough to see a picture of her angels) and they are the very picture of health and happiness. You had a terrible, wicked thing done to you and you survived it all together. You did what you had to do to keep your family together. That makes you a heroine in my book. I hope that if anything as awful ever happened to me (God forbid) I could be as brave as you. You were all treated shamefully, but thanks to your courage, your willingness to endure anything, and some great luck, you managed to keep your family together (sadly, Bunglie didn't have that luck). Be proud of yourself. Celebrate the fact that you are together and that terrible man didn't destroy you.

And BTW, I still don't believe in MSPB!

Now that I am sober and thinking straight I have had time to think and think I did.
Firstly, Aloah - Thank you. Just for your sheer simple , unadulterated sanity with regard to this whole, MSBP Matter. I have to ask, are you a psychologist or something, because your logical is so logical and obvious I do not understand, in retrospect why I have not seen it from that perspective before. You know I had never even asked myself, or realised that this was something that was solely directed at women. Yes I agree it is a bit like a modern day witch-hunt.
I do not know whether MSBP exists or not, I am not qualified to say. What I can say is that child abuse exists, so why not call it by it's proper name, such as 'smothering' poisoning or whatever. You don't need a fancy cover-all syndrome named after some mad man who told enormous lies as his claim to fame, (Baron Von Munchausen).
So, thank you for putting that touch of sanity back and keeping me on track.
After reading the 'Judgment' in my case again today it did not make me angry, I think it should have done but it made me feel very vulnerable and I realised that I still have not been able to deal with the emotions properly due to the order of the Judge that I could not discuss it.
Postsue, for some reason I do not know why I think that Judges in order to sit in the 'Family Division of The High Court' do have to have some special training. What I do not know but I am sure you or someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Janh, I do not meen to be insulting here but you have such useful links, are you sure you are not a social worker . Being serious, I read many of those sites on the links this afternoon and they convinced me for a while that MSBP does exist. I found it very difficult to contradict most of the evidence there, but admittedly I was looking at those that could tell me what MSBP was, not what it wasn't.
What I do know for certain is that I am greatful to those of you who have cared and said that despite my intoxicated state and posting that you think no differently. That is so reassuring for me. I would be daft to think that everyone felt like that but I have never expected one person to believe me let alone a whole group. You boost my ego and make me feel as if I don't have to be perfect to proove that I am 'normal' after all, normal people aren't perfect.
Sorry Cheesball, but it looks like it is going to be one of my Looong postings!
It has been sugested to me that I have a right to sue the ss who took away my children. I know that postsue is happy to do this but I just can not. my reason is simple. Not only would it rake up a lot of ill feeling on both sides, but it is the past and no one can give me back the years that I have lost. Let's pretend that I won and was paid some compensation. I could not spend that money as it would feel tainted, come from the tax payer and I would feel as if I had been paid off, and it was alright and forgotten. I will never forget, I can't but I can learn to cope and live with it. I can finally see some light and contact with my ds. I do not want anything to confuse my goal and that is simple, to find my children and learn what wonderful people I am certain they are growing up to be. (I know I already know where they are but when I say 'find' I mean find who they are). To be able to tell them the truth and to be able to show them that I do and always will love them.
I mean no disrespect postsue, but our situations are different in that respect. So if you want to sue the ss then that is personal to you but with my dealings with them do not expect it to be a 'clean' fight.
I know that I should add my voice to the other women affected by this and support them and help them find justice. I will if I can, but I know I am selfish in putting myself first but I can not help anybody else in a productive way if I am screwed up myself.
Getting plastered this afternoon is not the best thing I could have done it was in fact bl**dy stupid, but I needed it and I can say that it is not something that I will do again, if I can help it as I really did feel ill and knew that I had done nothing to help my self-respect let alone the respect of others.
I hope that after you have read this you get a good nights sleep as I hope to. It is long enough to be a bedtime story!
Aloah-if you are not a psychologist have you thought of becoming one?
Love to all

Postsue - This posting is just for you.
Firstly, do not feel guilty because you have your children. You still have a fight in clearing your name and getting your conviction overturned, so you will need all your strength for that.
Focus on something positive. I think going away with your dd at the present time is an excellent idea. It will help both of you.
As you know the anniversay of my arrest and seperation of my family is comming up very, very soon and I re-live it every year. Up until now I have been alone, but this year I hope that I will get through it, and although I know the memories will be painful I think it is important that I focus on the positive things that have happened in the last few weeks.
When something bad has happened in my life I have never normally hidden away from it, but with this it has been 'my secret' one I could not share. I have now found the support and I can share my feelings and know that even if I get p**ed, that support will still be there.
This is no longer 'my secret' and I am not the only person. I have never thought if my ds knows the date or if it affects him, it may well do.
Go away, and make something nice happen over this period of time so that next year you may still have sad memories but they may be interspersed with some new nice memories that will support you.