New thread re Roy Meadow (no Sir!)

[Janh]

Cheeseball, specially for you, yet another thread but without the Sir! (I'll post a link from the 2nd thread).

If what we are doing here is being radical busybodies then I am proud to be one! I am so sorry your husband feels like this and won't help you escape from the burden you are under.

Many of our MPs have now seen some details of Bunglie's case which we have forwarded to them and not one has said "you shouldn't be talking about this, you are breaking the law". Those gagging orders are so wrong and will surely be overturned before long. If you have to wait until they are before you can do something about your own case then so be it - he is wrong to be so angry with you about something that wasn't your fault but you are the one who lives with him and we can't tell you what to do.

If you get a chance do think about ringing Bunglie, you don't have to tell her your name or any details at all but I'm sure it would make you feel so much better (unless the guilt at doing it made you feel worse...)

Oh Bunglie, I'm so sorry if us getting angry on your behalf was upsetting you. We care about you. Hugs.

Edddm (too many d's I think!) NO!
It is better if someone else gets angry on my behalf, that way I don't have to and can try and concentrate on what's important.
Must go to bed now, I need a hug from my teddy!
Love Bunglie

bunglie, you have so many decisions to make, don't you? and to me, an outsider I think what's really stopping you seeing your son - go for it - but then I look at what you have been through, how you have had to suffer the huge nighmare consequences of seemingly every day decisions and I just don't know what to say to you.

From where I stand, telling your son you will be in the area on Sunday, but also giving him lots of get out clauses sounds what I would do. However, you know the meeting with the aps will be a big one, and how will you feel having two such emotional meetings so close together? If you have a bad meeting with the aps, could this spoil the meeting with your son? And if you see your son before you meet the aps, will this make you too emotional to be the hard, reasoned, in control person you want to be? If course it could work the other way, knowing you are seeing your son, that will give you strength when you see the aps. I just don't know.

Another thing, is there any chance of your son finding out that you are seeing the aps? can you tell him what you are doing, send him lots of love but say this might not be the best time to see him as emotions could be running high? Is he likely to feel upset if he knows you have travelled to his area without looking him up?

My tip for the meeting with the aps is to listen very hard to their answers. I bet they won't answer your questions direct but will just repeat more of the same sort of rubbish they have been spouting for years. Pick up on this, stop them and ask them 'why do you say this? what is your specific reason? can you explain that to me more clearly? - just keep asking why, why, why - without pleading. Put them on the spot. And then write down their answers.

Has anyone suggested that you ask them if they believe their links with the adoption agency ever led to a conflict of interest? Pretty sure they will answer 'no' to that. So then say, 'why is that?, what are your reasons for saying there is no conflict of interest? etc etc. I would be very interested to know their answer (not that I expect you to write it here).

Keep going, bunglie - I feel you are nearly there one way or the other.

Whoa a whole load of postings in the last couple of days to catch up on. Very opinionated me feels i must give my opinion.

1. Am i wrong or YOUR SON IS NO LONGER A MINOR and therefore you do not need to communicate with the aps about him. He is an adult and capable of his own opinions and decisions.
2. I agree that i cannot see in todays climate there being any recriminations over you breaking the gagging order now.
3. Effectively after your daughter reaches 18 are you released from all of the gagging orders?
4. in so far as your meeting with the AP's i would be exceptionally carefull to listen say little stick to your agenda of building relationships based on truth not lies. Tell them gently that you are in touch with many solicitors and groups of people acting for those damaged by Meadows and Southall, that you are pushing for a review of your case in line with the lastest advice and therefore its maybe better for the children to learn the truth with the love and support of their adoptive parents as well as thier birth mother. (ooh do you want to tell us how your DH feels about this all? Does he know? Does he have contact with your children? )

Basically i think the AP's have shown signs of defensive agression and you need to be firmly calm no matter how they try to rile you? You must stay controlled and calm no matter what.

Furthmore, i think i meeting with your son before the meeting with the aps would be really good. It would give you such confidence. But i still think that you have to go really really slow on the truth stuff with both of your kids until they start asking questions. Build relationships with stronger foundations before you potentially give them a shake. If they are ready to ask questions then be honest but take thier lead.

Children ask when they are ready to hear. Children do to like being told. No one wants to hear painful stuff until they are ready.

Bunglie dont misunderstand me, i have so much empathy for you and enormous warmth, love and good wishes for you to gain all you deserve for yourself and your children. its just that IMO you are (understandably) getting carried away with the whole thing. I think you need to slow down abit it will all be your in the end.

Perhaps an action list to keep to may be good.
ie, solicitors - gagging orders, aa- the letter and the ap's role in agency - checking the legitamacy of these things. This leads to potentially finding a means to stop the letter to your daughter.

Second - building the relationship with your kids. Have you had any more contact with your daughter since jan/feb? BTW you may want to prepare yourself that your son MAY take a while to find the courage to meet with you. As much as clearly he wants to, he may also be a bit scared.

Did you send him the photo? if not do it, you do know you are actually building a relationship with by letter and text and you can keep doing that.

Good luck lovely lady, i will keep putting my twopennyworth in every now and then. Tell me to p* o** if you want and i will go away.

Sofia, I didn't say it was right - just that I understand Bunglie's concerns - it's easy for us to say go for it, we haven't spent 15 years in her position, and if there is fallout it's not us who'll get it.

However much we dislike the idea she's still pretty much at the mercy of the APs and the stepmother - we don't know if they might decide she's going too far and start calling in solicitors. So she does have to go along with them up to a point - because they're not reasonable people.

Bunglie, please forgive me for talking about you as if you're not here!

You know I am still hoping very much that you will be able to see your son soon, and tell him what he's ready to hear, and to stop your daughter getting that letter when she's 18. I agree with stace that you will get there.

The gagging order was made before the European Convention on Human Rights was incorporated into UK law. So presumably someone could bring a test case to challenge them. Not trying to suggest you should, Bunglie, I'm sure you've got enough on your plate, but they possibility is they may not be enforceable (spelling?) in the near future...
Bunglie, your son is an adult and your daughter's nearly there. I think anyone who tried to enforce the gagging order could be made to look pretty damn stupid, particularly in current climate. But however much we care, we're not in the firing line, is easy for us to say. Go with your gut feeling.

Just wanted to add that i did not want to appear a know it all, and clearly you know the best things to do deep down

Good morning ,
I slept so soundly last night I feel refreshed and I think yesterday I lost perspective. I really appreciate all of your input -Thank you. You see what you do is raise questions that I have not thought of and you stop and make me think, before jumping in with both feet first.
I can then take your opinions and think, your advice nearly always spot on and if one of you doesn't think of something I know another will, I love you all for your help and individuality.
Now, I have made a decission with regard to seeing my ds on mothers Day, (well asking him if he wants to meet) and sorry much as I love you all I am not going to tell you yet what I am going to do. I think that wilth your help I have reached a decission and it is time that I put my energy into solving and building other relationships, now.
Oh, no amount of bribery, not even a giant bar of fruit & nut would make me tell yet what my decission is so please do not try and pry it out of me.
I have a lot of things to find out. You maybe interested to know that Leigh-Day told me that my Human Rights had been violated and this is part of my case that they would like to take on. I have not taken them up on their offer because to me it is just a small thing and not really very important (feel free to argue!). to me I have two very important things that I want/need to do.

1. Stop my dd getting 'the letter' when she is 18.
2. Tell both my dd and ds, the truth, by getting to know them and then telling them slowly and with respect for the fact that this information could well turn their whole world upside down.

If I could clear my name, have the ap's support me in telling my children the truth, if I could do this without lawyers and with the goodwill of all involved knowing they had the best interests of 2 young people at heart that would all be a bonus. I want a perfect world, but none of us our perfect. I have to learn to be more confident and even if I am made to feel guilty, I know I am not and I was found innocent by the criminal court. I have over the years lost my self respect. I am used to being dominated by the ap's. I have been frightened of challenging them. A lot is going to change between now and the nine months before my dd is 18. I just hope that I can be patient, and that in the process of me getting what I want I do not cause anyone any hurt.
Yes stace, the gagging order is for life, it is not lifted just because my children reach 18 but I can apply to the court to have it lifted then, if I have a good reason.
Perhaps someone can help me with this;
At the end of his summing up in the Judgment the Judge, said, "I reserve this case", does that mean if I went back to court it would be heard by him? I think he must have retired now. The Hon. Sir Matthew Thorpe. Anyone know?

Hello,
It seems as if a lot has gone on in the last couple of days. At one point Bunglie I thought you had become quite radical....only joking, it is so good to see you with some fight in you, just make sure you keep it directed in the right direction!
I actually agree with Janh, but I can see all points of view. Whatever your decision is I hope that it works out.
With regard to meeting the ap's dotake notes, I am certain that they have consulted a lawyer by now and they will probably be taking notes, so DON'T FEEL INTIMIDATED by them. SofiaAmes and Aloah are correct. You take control. You sound like to me you will not have to work too hard on being very reasonable as you have been far too reasonable in the past and I am certain that they are betting on your good nature to win you over.
It is quite clear to me that you still feel guilty, YOU ARE NOT. You also only have the best interests of you children at heart like any mother and you are their mother.
Please do not take this the wrong way but you seem to care a lot about 'doing the right thing' not hurting people and what people think of you. Well I say f**K them. You must learn that you are just as important, your feelings matter and your children will pick up on the way you feel. If you do not feel positive that will come across in what you say.
I think SofiaAmes is right, see a counsellor, you don't have to go into detail, but you need to sort out the difference between firm polite control and coming across as agressive. Just My opinion but I think it would help.

Carriemac, what planet are you living on?

Postsue and Cheeseball how are you doing?

Ha Ha Ha!
I have just read an article in a magazine by a Dr. Marc Feldman-He believes in MSBP and says that there is a new type of it CYBER-MUNCHAUSENS-SYNDROME. Honestly it is where people go on line and fabricate a false medical scenario in chat rooms etc and feed off the sympathy. If that is the case there are a few mumsnetters, me included who should expect a knock on the door any minute
Has anyone else come across this. I think Dr Marc Feldman is American and they are a bit cuckoo, (sorry sofiaAmes, we will adopt you!).
Is there no end as to what this Syndrome encompasses?

Bunglie, I do think this is important!!! Having them take it up won't make any difference to you and your children in the short term, but could have a huge impact on the Family Courts in the future. I don't know which bit of what happened to you was a violation of your human rights (I would say all of it but realise that's probably wrong) but if you could just change part of what can happen to innocent families in the future think what a contribution that would be!

Please talk to them about it again and find out what's involved and what effect they think it could have.

Sorry GillW I have just beaten you to it, found \http.//news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/health/866358.st\this

Oh B**ER, I got it wrong its all your GillW!

wayward, sadly I think that might be true - did you see that huge story that blew up about fruit-loops, the boy in Canada who could only play paintball games on the net because he was suffering from terminal cancer - the beginning and end of the story is here .

The paintball forum couldn't cope with the amount of interest and had to keep setting up new sections for it - posts were flooding in from all corners of the world - It was heartwarming.

When that story took off there were some very cynical reponses from people who've seen this kind of thing (made-up) before. It does happen.

Marc Feldman story for you, wayward!

Well wayward, that's my 'Goose cooked'

I guess that I have been found out I am a Cyber-Munchie, (Hmm... sounds like a sweat!) Sorry but are they really serious?

Had not thought of it from that point of view janh, that's me being a bit self-centered again because I can only think of things in relation as to how they can help me, and I could see this complicating rather than helping the situation. You are right though I should think about how this could help other people and it need not affect what I am doing now or the ap's. It is purely the fact that my medical treatment was compromised and I could not 'talk' freely or get counselling to help me through the situation. I think that when someone says to you that you may not be in a wheelchair now if you had got proper medical treatment, that is bound to have an affect, but when I thought about it I realised that I would eventually have ended up in a wheelchair because of the nature of my illness.
So yes, I will think about contacting Leigh-Day again and sending them the documents they want, but I need to know first that they will do all the work and it will not affect what I am trying to achieve now. Thank you for pointing it out.

NO! not even 2 bars - I am partial to walnut whips though, no..no...stay strong

Never self-centred, Bunglie!

How about a WHOLE BOX of walnut whips then....you're wavering, aren't you...I can feel it...

I take great pride in being a little cuckoo. But please do not put me in the same nut house as that marc feldman guy. Anyway, he is from alabama. To an american that is enough said.

I agree that if leigh day think you have the facts that are necessary to challenge the gagging orders in the european courts, you should help (if you can bring yourself to do so emotionally). The gagging orders are what is keeping this travesty going and keeping parents away from their children. If those can be overturned, 1000's of parents can make a move to at least get in touch with their children.

Janh, I think that the problem is that Bunglie has been at the mercy of the ap's etc. for 15 years. It's time for her to take charge and no longer be at their mercy. At this stage there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.

But sorry if I am sounding pushy. I just hate to see people being taken advantage of and have always been a bit of a champion of the underdog (ringo was my favorite beatle).

Hmmm...What's wrong with Alabama?

Being serious, do you realise that if I wanted to challenge the judges decission and clear my name. if they found out about this site then the defense team could say that I had been manipulating and using you all to meet my own needs of gaining attention, and that this proved that I had Munchausen Syndrome. A very frightening thought. The only thing that is in my favour is that I have the documentation to prove that what I have posted is true. I witheld the fact of my illness because I did not want it to confuse things and I did not want it to cloud peoples judgment. I guess I only told you all because I felt confident enough that you all 'knew' me well enough not to let this additional info. alter your feelings, but I felt that if I did not tell you the whole truth that I would be deceiving you.
This works for me, because I have found a group of people who can not see me, therefore I keep my anonymity, I feel I can be more open with you about my feelings and yet I have to acknowledge now the fact that what it is that attracted me to telling you my 'story' could actually work against me.
What an awful thing for people to do, say they are sick or victims of something and not really be. To be honest I think you lot, and yes even the 'loud mouthed American'(I love you really XX), do actually know me better than most of my 'normal' friends because I have felt able to tell you things I could not tell someone face to face. The thought that someone may think that I am making it up for sympathy is horrible and sends a cold shiver down my spine. My worry was that you just would not believe that I was innocent and really did do something to harm my dd.
If any of you have any doubts as to whether my story is genuine, ask me a question and I will endeavour to answer it and put your minds at rest. I am so very sorry if any of you feel 'used' or mislead, that was never my intention, but I have used you, all of you, for strentgh, advice and continuing support. That is something I can not ever repay you for and I thank you. I am just sorry that there are people out there who abuse a system like this and makes us question the honesty of what we are reading.

A whole box of walnut whips AND a bar of fruit and nut.....tempting.....but I must refuse, I am wavering a bit....but not enough, I shall stay strong sorry janh

No doubts here, Bunglie!

TWO boxes of Walnut Whips, TWO bars of fruit and nut AND a tub of your favourite Ben & Jerry's...hmm?

Could be tempted if I knew what Ben and Jerry's are......... wavering slightly but I do have a figure to think of, hmmm.........perhaps I had better not think of my figure, not a pretty sight, so what are Ben and Jerry's janh, I seem to have missed out on some kind of sweetie which is unusual for me, I thought I had 'tested' them ALL!