New thread re Roy Meadow (no Sir!)

[Janh]

Cheeseball, specially for you, yet another thread but without the Sir! (I'll post a link from the 2nd thread).

If what we are doing here is being radical busybodies then I am proud to be one! I am so sorry your husband feels like this and won't help you escape from the burden you are under.

Many of our MPs have now seen some details of Bunglie's case which we have forwarded to them and not one has said "you shouldn't be talking about this, you are breaking the law". Those gagging orders are so wrong and will surely be overturned before long. If you have to wait until they are before you can do something about your own case then so be it - he is wrong to be so angry with you about something that wasn't your fault but you are the one who lives with him and we can't tell you what to do.

If you get a chance do think about ringing Bunglie, you don't have to tell her your name or any details at all but I'm sure it would make you feel so much better (unless the guilt at doing it made you feel worse...)

Bunglie - you would be able to speak to a counsellor I am sure - whatever you said would be confidential - patient doctor sort of relationship (ironic I know!!)!!

I would try and go into the meeting with the APs sort of on the fence - trying to be nice and ameanable but onthe other hand being uite forceful and saying I want or I would like rather than can I - that way you are taking control away from them - as for the meeting without them - great idea - mention it in front of your daughter and that way it will be harder for them to say no and would put them in a bad light.

Can you not have someone go with you - just sit near you - not at the same table so they get scared - but close enough to give you a little support and strength and maybe even to tape what theyare saying??

GillW, what a perfect turn of phrase - my father's second wife - brilliant. She isn't your mother Bunglie, not in any sense of the word.
Twinkie, I think discussing it in front of anyone at the meeting would be illegal, sadly. But I bet Bunglie could find a sympathetic counsellor who would be prepared to break the terms of the gagging order in complete confidentiality. Or simply don't tell them about it.
Definitely tell your son you will be in the area and would love to meet him. How often will you get a chance like this. Bugger what the aps think of it. (I think we have enough in that swear box for my legal fees now )

I totally agree. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the terms of the gagging order that you are not allowed to discuss the case with anyone, not that you are not allowed to see your son (who is now 18). Arrange to see him!!!!! It will give you strength to deal with the ap's and it's none of their business whether you see him or not.
In fact, maybe you should double-check the terms of the gagging order. What exactly does it say you are not allowed to do. Call the lawyer again and ask him if you are allowed to talk to a counsellor at this point and would it be detrimental to your position (legally) if you did see one.

I think I have got it!
Right,I stay cool, calm, polite and IN CONTROL. I state things (politely not condescendingly).
I take along some of the papers such as the transcript, just in case I need it as I confirms my innocence and states the terms of what the judge expected in the way of contact when the children were adopted and I could slip in an Affidavit of my Aunt about my "Fathers second wife".
Problem, are you ready for this.....According to the order I AM NOT ALLOWED TO DISCUSS THE CASE WITH THE ADOPTIVE PARENTS OR EVEN MY CHILDREN. It states ".......any documents, statements or evidence ....with any person(s) without further order..." There is a provision for parts of the transcript to be seen by the adoption agency to ensure that the right kind of placement is found.
I tried to get some kind of counselling several years ago and was told very firmly that I may not discuss the case, the following is taken from a letter my solicitor sent me (June 2001)...." although when the minors reach the age of majority (18) a provision is to be included that upon appliocation to the court an abridged copy of the transcript maybe applied for by members of the medical profession if it can be shown that without disclosure of the knowledge it contins your clients medical treatment and therefore health could be compromised."
OMG I can't ask my ds to meet me next Sunday as it is Mothers day and he will be expected to go with his sister to the ap's probably, and I would put him in a position where he would have to choose. What a shame.

I just assumed that I would be able to tell the children and the ap's. The interesting thing is that my 'step-monster' is also 'gagged' so she shouldn't have said anything to my aunt. However I was only 'gagged' re the civil (wardship) proceedings not the criminal case, so I could talk about the criminal case between Nov 1990 and Feb.1991 and tell people I was innocent. As the criminal proceedings were mentioned in the civil proceedings I am therefore gagged about them after Feb 1991. Sounds a bit daft doesn't it. I think I need to clarify all this with the solicitor before the meeting with the ap's.

Bunglie, even more reason to meet your son on sunday. YOU are his mother!!!!!! He does not have to choose, he can do both. In fact, you can let him pick the time, so that it works around when he is expected to be at the ap's. Please, call the lawyer again, and explain to him your predicament regarding discussing the issues with the ap's. Clearly, you will need to break the gag order in order to discuss things with them. I suspect that the lawyer will not think that this is so egregious, especially considering he recommended that you meet and discuss things with them. You can't discuss things without breaking the gagging order. Anyway, what could possibly happen at this point? Your daughter will be 18 soon and they can't stop you from seeing your children and they are hardly going to put you in jail for breaking a gagging order issued in such clearly wrong circumstances, especially since meadows has been discredited.

Twinkie, just out of interest did you know that patient doctor confientiality is not all that it is cracked up to be? If you tell a doctor anything that is illegal, has or could case harm to others, including yourself. They are under an obligation to 'tell'. My GP at one point was told that had she witheld any information she would be in contempt of court!

Amazing that it's apparantly perfectly ok for the judgement to compromise your health and medical treatment until your children are 18. I'm sure there must be some sort of human rights legislation which would make the legality of that judgement dubious, even if only on that issue alone.

It sounds to me like everyone except you has broken the gagging order. Time to fight!!! Don't let them control you. Go for it. Up until now, everyone (meadows, the step monster, the ap's, the judge) has counted on your respect for "authority" and the "law." Time to stop letting them use authority and the law to for their own means. Take control!

When you are speaking to the lawyer, ask him about seeing a counsellor and see if he can recommend one in your area. (I bet he can)

Ooh SofiaAmes, I don't know now about asking him on Sunday because I want him to say "yes" and there is probably some loyalty to his sister and possibly even a 'spark'to the ap's. I would be devestated if he said "No" and I would have put him in a compromising position. If the ap's then found out they could make quite a big thing out of it being mothers day and I could be in the excrement up to my armpits!
I might also put him in a position where he had , or felt as if he had to lie, to either protect my feelings or those of his sister or even the ap's. I just do not want to make our first meeting too awkward for him to agree to. I would be putting him in a position of divided loaylty and even though this would be the most wonderful day in the whole year for me to see him I think I am asking to much of him and being selfish. If I am honest I do not think that if he did say "no" I could cope very well with it emotionally and it might affect my clear, controlled reasoning at the meeting with the ap's.

I still think you should suggest it with lots of outs for him. Just say you are going to be in the area and did he want to get together. Don't mention mothers day. He is male, he probably hasn't even remembered that it's mothers day. You will not be forcing him to make choices and he will be able to do both "events' if he wishes. If he chooses not to get together, I can guarantee that it will have nothing to do with mothers day, it will be because he just isn't ready. But at least give him the opportunity.
Stop worrying about what the ap's will think. You are only getting together with them to appear to be reasonable. Don't expect them to be. And stop calling yourself selfish. You are not. You are a mother who had her children stolen away. What you are doing is for you and them and you both deserve it. There is nothing selfish about wanting to have a relationship with YOUR children and loving and hugging them. That is normal and I don't think anyone (except the ap's) will fault you for that. They have convinced you for 15 years that you are wrong, evil, bad. Don't let them do it anymore. You are your childrens' mother. Don't ever doubt that.
Anyone else, what do you think?

Bunglie - I'd be willing to bet that you get a Mother's Day text from your ds on Sunday - and probably even a card (assuming he has your address as you've written to him).

GillW, I put a caveat with that. He is male, and males just aren't too good at that kind of thing. He may just not have even noticed. I am sure my dh (42 years old and 5 children, with 3 mothers) will not notice that sunday is mothers day until saturday (when I remind him) when he will go rushing out in a panic to buy a card for his mother (and me) and then call her because it's going to be a day late.

I don't think you should slander Prof Southall here he is a caring a dedicated doctor.

Bunglie, if it is illegal to tell your son, I would tell him ASAP, before the aps realise that it is illegal. I would bet that if and when they (or the stepmonster) realise, they will do anything to prevent it - like calling the police or getting an injunction. If you tell your son there will be nothing they can do about it. You have been FAR too reticent and reasonable and law-abiding IMO. You are that boy's MOTHER. Why shouldn't you see him on MOTHER'S Day? I bet he has no idea it's Mother's Day. Tell him you are in the area and would love to see him if he doesn't have any other plans. I would be so tempted to send a letter saying you want to tell him more about the true circumstances about his adoption - actually I would have sent him the letter by now, but that's me. You don't owe those APs anything - they have colluded in the stealing of your kids. I wouldn't see them personally. Who do you want to seem reasonable to exactly? I'm sorry I probably sound quite aggressive, but the whole situation makes me very angry

Totally agree with Sofia, if he says no it will be nothing to do with Mother's Day. I am certain of that. Ask. He can't arrange to meet you himself as he won't know you are coming up. I bet the aps won't tell him! Ask him, please.

Carrie, that's whats so bizarre and hard to understand. I know Southall is caring and dedicated but ? and this is a major but ? perhaps some docs have become obsessed with MSbP and see it everywhere. Certainly pretending to diagnose Sally Clark's dh from a TV programme was going beyond the limit. Southall is so committed to kids that he sometimes gives the appearance of being anti-parent. His use of covert video surveillance to 'catch' parents harming their children was very controversial, for instance. If those parents were abusive, Southall himself was putting their kids at risk in order to collect evidence. But perhaps saving those kids from future harm. Ethically so complex is hard to decide right and wrong in that situation.

O.K You've convinced me! Seriously, I think you are probably right over the fact he wont realise that it is Mother's Day.. I am a bit of a wimp- sorry aloha, but I am so conscious of spending years having to justify myself that it has almost got me to a state of paranoia. What exactly do they think of me. I have no idea what they have been told, I am therefore very aware that they may have grown up being told a pack of lies and that I tried to hurt his sister. I spent years believing that my children would grow up hating me because of what I was accused of doing. It mattered little that I was innocent, I felt guilty because I had caused the ss to take my children away. I feel it is important that they get to know me and I them ,properly. Then if they don't like me it will be their decission and not because of what they have been told. I can not tell them the truth without getting to know them and I am sure my ds is as worried as I am about being rejected. I guess yes this does make me sound as if it is more important to me what others think than what they think. That is not the case honestly. I feel as if I am walking on egg-shells and I am so close that if I make one wrong move I will loose them. In a way it all seems to be going to smoothly - He sent me a text saying he wants to meet me - I still have to pinch myself that that is true.
Am I actually making sense to anyone??

Carrie, I am interested to know why you have such strong feelings over Doctor Southall. Don't worry I am not going to jump down your throat, I should just like to know why you find it acceptable to accuse someone, from a documentary, of double murder? We all have opinions and are entittled to them, so I will respect yours if you can explain it to me?

Bunglie, you've just raised a point. If in fact your children have not been told why they were taken from you and given up for adoption, they may have all sorts of terrible fantasies about what happened. They may already feel rejected and feel that you chose to give them up. Which in a way may be worse than thinking that they were taken away from you (for whatever reason). I think that's even more reason to tell them the truth. And soon. I agree with aloha, tell your ds soon, so that those evil ap's and step monster can't prevent you from doing so. Realistically they wouldn't be able to in the long term, but they might be able to in the short term with an injunction or something. I think it would be much harder for them to do something to you afterwards if you did talk to your son. Especially given the current disrepute of roy meadows. Please CALL your son and organize to see him on sunday.

Bunglie, I can understand your caution. Knowing that the APs have not behaved very honourably, and that the law which took your children away and kept you quiet was wrong, still doesn't make it easy to break out. And there still seems to be a danger that the law could be invoked to stop you having any contact with them at all.

Until the law is changed and/or your case is reviewed it's safer (but frustrating) to go along with the rules as far as possible.

I hope you can see your son on Sunday though, one way or another.

I just wonder what on earth they could do to you once you'd told him. B**r all, I suspect. Especially in the current climate, now these miscarriages of justice are being exposed. Easy for me to say, of course, but I really think you've been gagged long enough and have been incredibly patient and understanding. More power to your elbow!

Sorry janh, but I disagree with you. I think it's highly unlikely that bunglie's case will be reviewed or that the law will be changed anytime in the near future and in the meantime her children are growing up without her. She has been obedient for 15 years. Enough is enough. What more does she have to lose.

Ok Bunglie is a wimp and admitts it. Yes If I am honest I want to stand up and shout for all I am worth, and tell the whole bl**dy world the truth.

"I DID NOT TRY AND HURT EITHER OF MY CHILDREN, EITHER ACCIDENTALLY OR ON PURPOSE, I LOVE THEM MORE THAN LIFE ITSELF."

"I WANT MY CHILDREN BACK, I WANT THEM NOW AND I AM PISSED OFF WITH HAVING TO DO THE 'RIGHT' THING ALL THE TIME."

"I AM HUMAN, I LOVE MY CHILDREN SO MUCH THAT IT HURTS BECAUSE I CAN NOT TOUCH THEM, KISS THEM OR TELL THEM."

"I AM FRIGHTENED IF I MAKE A MISTAKE OR DO SOMETHING 'WRONG' I WILL LOOSE MY FIGHT FOR JUSTICE."

O.K. Aloha et al, that is as brave as I get today. I am going back under my rock where it is safe and no one can hurt me. I will send my son a txt about Sunday week, but not tommorrow. I need to sleep on this and not be too emotive and think it through. I have spent one third of my life being judged and I can not get out of this habit overnight.
You all talk so much sense but then I can not let my heart rule my head. If I did I would be on the phone to him now and damn the consequences. I want my children back, I want them as unscathed as is possible and I want them to find happiness. I only have control over my emotions and you lot are doing a wonderful job doing something I can not afford to do, that is get ANGRY!
I had never thought of injunctions etc. I guess that is deep down why I have resisted involving a lawyer in contacting the ap's.
Now I have had my shout and swear, all be it here I am going to go to bed, try to sleep and start again tommorrow in trying to make sense of all this.
Love Bunglie XX
P.S. If I had one wish it would be just to hold my children, hug them and tell them I love them. As I realised today that is a crime!

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