ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

oh and DCV i know you were being sarcastic about the conspiracy thing, but I thought it was worth pointing out the USA are helping Israel for a reason. I don't think it is a conspiracy either - it is all rather bloody obvious.

DCV? Just adding a 'venerated' after your name.

Message withdrawn

gosh bloss, i don't know how it could be much worse, but i guess it could! I don't really think Isreal care about Lebanese casualties, they don't seem to care about the ones they have caused already. And i know it may not be state policy, but children writing messages on bombs destined for Lebanon really makes me wonder about the mentality there.

Message withdrawn

Yes, and then the bomb the roads so noone can escape or at least it's a very dangerous escape.

all the israeli apologists on here...shame on you.

really.

when is what israel is doing going to actually be acknowledged? creation of ghettos and berlin style walls? anyone seeing the irony of the cruelty being meted out by those against whom the same cruelties were enacted?

the creation of the state was a tragic and immoral sop to the wests' guilt about WW2. but that is history.

the way that israel has conducted itself pretty much ever since beggars belief.

and hezbollah is not some 'exotic' as the very frustrated middle east commentator on newsnight commented splinter group. they have huge support among the grass roots in south lebanon. guerilla groups cannot function as they do without it. there are real reasons for this like the fact that israel is occupying territories there illegally. you cannot kill terrorist organisations by bombing them (and civilians) ffs. you have to get round a table with them. you have to address the reasons why ordinary young men are willing to give up their lives and their families to fight for a cause they believe in. find me any example where terrorism has been overcome through violence and force? there are none.

until the US and it's allies including the UK stop turning a blind eye to every shitty thing that israel does whilst simultaneously condemning others for the same actions there will be no end to this. it is up to America, and at some point America will see that feeding terrorist recruitment in this way goes against it's interests. i hope.

Hamas was formed because of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories
Hizbollah was formed because of the Israeli occupation of Lebanon
Pattern anyone?
And of nothing has changed in 40 years, surely it is time to consider another tactic.

Sophable - the difference between the 'israeli apologists' as you so ignorantly and disrespectfully refer to us - and you is that us 'apologists' can't just get away with posting broad, vitriolic, overused and frequently inaccurate sweeping statements about Israel.

Us 'apologists' actually have to know the facts about the history of the conflict in order to challenge this baseless rhetoric. Many of these have been set out in this thread.

But then, you don't even think that Israel has the right to exist, so what's the point in you contributing to this debate?

sorry i know this is all v serious but i so like donnie's no-nonsense schoolmarm tone sometimes - in the right context!

Great post Sophable. I think one of the problems is that in the west, we really are taught to think of Arabs/ muslims as "other". Someone earlier said that up to now Israel has seemed to be reasonable, but if you look at it from an Arab perspective, that is just so gobsmacking and shows how far removed our perception in the west is removed from theirs. Which begs the question of how we can end up having such polarised views.

well i am a schoolmarm in RL Caligula!

chestnutter who here has actually stated their opposition to the existence of Israel? you claim you have the facts but many posters here have also presented facts which you seem to have forgotten.Baseless rhetoric? which comments exactly?

'it is up to America, and at some point America will see that feeding terrorist recruitment in this way goes against it's interests. i hope. '

Yes, everyting is ALWAYS America's fault. If they make war, they're interfering where they shouldn't be, if they don't, they've willfully abandoned and condemned others to die.

They're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

Palestine was Britain's mandate, so was Iraq. They wanted it. They didn't want the French to have it. All this was w/approval by the League of Nations, including the US.

But somehow the entire conflict that we are living with today is entirely the US's fault.

As usual.

When Sophable says: "the creation of the state [of Israel] was a tragic and immoral sop to the wests' guilt about WW2. but that is history." , I interpret that as opposition to its existence. Wrongly perhaps, but then that needed to be clarified if it wasn't the case.

Which comments are baseless rhetoric? Where do I start! On that one posting itself I would say the offensive comparison between the Holocaust and the Palestinian situation (which essentially compares Israelis to Nazis); the way Israel has 'conducted itself ever since beggars belief' - again, no facts, just one-dimensional and vague; I could go on but the usual Israel-bashing is now starting to bore me ...

'I could go on but the usual Israel-bashing is now starting to bore me ...'

Just wait till the next natural disaster strikes and the focus will move back to more hatred towards America, which is every single ill in the world and deserve all they get - being a nation of 300m where everyone is racist, greedy, 'neo-con', Christian, superficial, materialistic, unconcerned w/the environment and horrible.

Yawn . . . wait for me, chestnutter! I'm right behind ya!

but they HAVE created Berlin style walls - and are building it right now as we speak, the famous 'security' wall which just so happens to be annexing swathes of Palestinian land into the bargain.And they HAVE created ghettoes - what exactly would you call the refugee camps of the Gaza strip? holiday homes? you cannot hide from the truth chestnutter.

Come off it, America bashing isn't about bashing all its inhabitants, it's about bashing its government and foreign policy.

And that wall has thankfully succeeded in preventing suicide bombs in Israel because it has stopped Palestinian terrorists roaming freely in and stepping onto school buses. So while it's sad that Israel had to build a wall, it is a success.

And as for refugee homes, of course that's a tragedy but as I've said before on this thread, the opportunities for a two-state solution were rejected by their leaders; and now they've elected Hamas to represent them, I can't see that situation improving for them.

Look, as with any conflict Israel is far from blameless; each government has missed opportunities and made mistakes, and so have the Palestinian leaders. But it's really not as black and white as you seem to enjoy seeing it.

A wall is one thing, annexing all that extra land is another
Just the way you go about appeasing the opposition.
Hamasa are very close to accepting a two state solution, so long as it includes an equal access to Jersualem which whre the wall is now prohibits. And the withdrawal of all Israeli settlements on Palestinain land
And the release of many prisoners. Many who have never been tried in a proper court. Some have been detained for 3 decades.

My outrage at the US role in foreign fuck ups is nothing to do with the American people per se, but their governments foreign policy.
And I know other nations are at fault in this conflict, but as the US and Israel are so closely linked, thats where my focus lies.

There has to be 2 state solution agreed, wiping Israel of the world will not serve any purpose, however tempting it might seem as an easy solution. But both sides have to compromise and negotiate and as I said earlier therein lies the problem.

Message withdrawn

I am just a mum watching all this horrors and thinking about how dreadful it is that innocent people on both sides are being killed every day.
I don't know the answers, or who should be blamed or who did what first but I know that it won't be sorted out by killing more people. That just creates more soldiers.
Three weeks ago, my cousin's husband who was 23 was beaten to death in Newcastle, South Africa. Of course, we are all devastated, particularly my cousin who has a 5 month old baby.
There are so many pointless, violent deaths and so many who survive suffering terrible emotional and physical pain. The events that have happened will always be here for us to debate but if we and our leaders understood all other people as human beings with an equal right to live on this planet in peace then perhaps the future doesn't have to be so terrifyingly bleak.
Please don't shoot me down in flames for not taking a side. I just want the killing to stop.

OMG, Rudi...

very sorry for your family's loss rudi.
I agree Bloss, of course there are two sides to the story, of course Palestine and Lebanon [or their terrorist contingents] are culpable to a degree, but what i find so abhorrent about the current situation is all the things you describe - cluster bombing civilian areas, bombing UN sites apparently deliberately, and also the ongoing treatment of ordinary Palestinians. What I find so bizarre is that I can't see it working in any way towards Israel's goals. It just creates more hatred amongst youngers generations - I can imagine Lebanese children now having a hateful imprint upon their minds of what Israel have done to them. It seems like such an immature and short term reaction to do what Israel are doing, and it will create problems for future generations and just prolong the hatred on both sides. Israel's people have a right to live in peace and without fear - but they do not have more of a right than other people around them. Miriam Margoyles [Jewish actress] was saying much the same thing on the radio the other day.
Expat, some of my best friends are American. True though actually. I love so much of America [I also loved Clinton, flawed though he was.] But I feel Bush and Blair together have helped to make this world much more dangerous and unstable.

can I sneak this in between the lines of warfare...

how do you get a degree from Princess Anne? Just curious really.