ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

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And I see Israel has just bombed UN observers. 4 killed. And have you seen the charming photos of the Israeli children writing messages on the rockets heading for Libanon. What a peaceful people. You'd think with everything the Israeli people have been through they would have more humanity, but no.

Oh and just to add to the deaths of the UN Peacekeepers, it is now reported that Israel is using cluster bombs in civilian areas of Lebanon. I thank god that my husband managed to cancel his business trip to Tel Aviv next week. Point of note - one of my best friends here is Jewish with family in Tel Aviv and she is horrified with what Israel is doing. So not all Jews/Israelis are behind the bombing.

It's interesting to see the take of the Israli media. They are pointing out that it's not going well at all.
It is of course easy to point at the similarities of Israel bombing refugees fleeing and the same actions by the Nazis in WWII. But militarily there are perhaps more similarities with WW I.
Like thge Germans in the tenches, Hezbollah knew the enemy was coming and that it had more and better guns.
So they dug in deep.
Bombing and artillery doesn't go down all that far, and even where you use ordnance optimise for penetration, it has to land very near it's target, which is hard for the tunnels we hear that have been dug. Allied forces in Iraq had huge superiority because of night fighting capability; in effect the enemy couldn't see them, but was clearly seen. Tunnels have little or no infra red signature, and light amplification does no good either.
Israeli intelligence doesn't seem to have spotted the creation of these defensive works, and I predict heavy casualties.

Israel has of course overwhelming superiority in pretty much every type of armament. Not just technology, but also they simply have more troops than the people they are fighting.
But...
Israel cares about casualties more than it's enemies, who quite cynically are happy to see their own civillian casualties.
Israel also has the weakness of having a largely conscript army. Since the industrial revolution and the need for professional willing troops in modern warfare, it is the case that conscript armies even when larger and better equipped like Russia in Afghanistan, or the US in Vietnam have gone badly wrong. The Falklands war was lost by the Argentinians simply because 16 year old farm boys, snatched from their homes by the government ran away.
Israel will not fall because of this action. Many Israelis will die, but no state level enemy has the ability to do anything other than scare Israel enough to destroy them utterly.
But it will cost blood and treasure big time.

Israel may care more about their own [Israeli] casualties than Hezbollah care about Lebanese casualties [though hard to prove] but you can be sure the Lebanese care about their own casualties just as much as Israel care about theirs. And Israel seem totally indifferent to Lebanese and Palestinian casualties, something I just find unutterably mystifying.

This has been planned for quite some time by Bush[neocon puppet]and the Israelis.
The 2 soldiers captured is an excuse.
The USA want control of oil so they can use this to their advantage and feed their gas guzzling nation.The USA has been itching to start a fight with Iran.
The USA destabilises governments and puts in puppets as 'leaders'[ie Saddam Hussein].When these 'puppets'don't tow the line they bomb the country on a[for instance]human rights pretext or womd pretext they destabilise the country,again and the whole thing goes round again.
USA dosen't give a damn about human rights it cares about oil and power.

An interesting statement I heard yesterday from one of the Make Islam/Western friends groups. On BBC news 24

Iraq are sending more aid to Lebanon than the USA.
Iraq FFS

My 12 yr old ds said are the US going to wait for Iran to get involved, then bomb the whole area leaving it open for their exploitation for the next millenia...
I told him he was being too general and cycnical but the more I think about it...

Piffle..I have to say I think you have an extremely astute son

do you know that I read this thread and I nod sagely along to some comments, agree with most and get slightly narked at some terminology but am in agreement with the general sentiment of how devastatingly wrong this all is

but I do have to say that Doobydoo .. what a pile of conspiracy theory crap

Ah yes, I was wondering when this would come round to being Bush's fault... I've been lurking in of seeing intelligent arguments on both sides so I could learn a bit more about that the causes of this conflict. You know why do these people behave this way (and I think there's plenty of blame to go round all the players).

But, now it's Bush's fault.... oh an dit's all about oil.... err... does the USA have interests in oil in Lebanon? no. In Israel? no.

Are you supporting the oil industry by participating in this online chat? Yes.

Hahaha I know it does[much to my chagrin]sound like 'conspiracy crap'..but i am afraid it isn't.and i think it's prob even worse.Best thing to do is wait and see then if i am wrong and everyone is fighting for noble reasons etc you can say it again!...

The US conspires to flatten parts of the Middle East and then their construction companies pile in to profit from the rebuilding exercise. We were taught in A Level Economics that the US profited massively from WW2.

It's all about the money.

Israel and the Lebanon don't have to have oil themselves for Piffle's ds's theory: his suggestion is that it draws in, and thereby provides an excuse for attacking, the countries (like Iran) which do.

I don't mind being diagreed with..what i find interesting in rl life at least people get really shouty and huffy and think you are attacking them [personally]if you don't agree.I don't take offence if people don't agree.I think its interesting[particularly on mn]that we can air our views and read other peoples.and maybe change our minds or not.

uwila we are talking about teh destabilisation of the entire region, depending on who came out to support who in a regional conflict it could ahve far reaching implications for oil supply.
Remember the Iran Iraq war, carless days? Well we had them in NZ anyway.
How about when Nigeria implodes, its government selling oil to the US conglomerates while its own people starve and live without power, water and education and basic healthcare.
Its not Bush, its the Clinton Bush Reagan CArter before him and if I had bothered or been interested to learn more about US history no doubt I could trace it back further
I mean the US has a penchant for no win wars
Vietnam for instance, maybe they just like guns who knows? USA depends on oil, obviously we all do but the USA massively so. So they are VERY dependent on oil producing nations, on cheapest possible oil...
No rocket science degree needed.

Your accusations are without substance on this one. George Bush has not done anything to my knowledge that connects this conflict with a quest for oil and it's related industries.

Have actuallyb been avoiding this thread a bit as has the potential to get me really irritated and upset - not by the views, but by the topic because it is SO wrong! But now and incensed by USA AND UK not calling for immediate end to aggression (Oh no, we'll just let lots more people die and have their lives torn apart while we sit abck and smugly let a couple of countries bomb the crap out of each another - after all, saves us having to get our hands dirty fighting hizbollah)

PLus to add to the "conspiracy theory" the USA do actually financially benefit when Israel goes to war as they have a defence contract with them to supply said bombs...

'Are you supporting the oil industry by participating in this online chat? Yes.'

Quite. This nation is dependent upon petroleum, too. Just as depenedent as any other Western nation.

And not just for operating motor vehicles.

Look at the toiletries you use. See any ingredients like petrolatum, mineral oil, etc.?

How is your home heated?

As for environmental policies, anyone seen China's lately, where one-fifth of the world's population lives? If so, please let me know, b/c I haven't been able to find one.

Piffle "maybe they just like guns" d'ya think!!??

That wasn't direct at you, Piffle. Was directed at doobydoo.

As for the Labour party, I have a feeling they've gone and basically handed the next victory to the Tories. And if you think they're going to do any better, well, you may find yourself 'debating' about matters far closer to your front door in the near future once they take the reigns again.

'USA depends on oil, obviously we all do but the USA massively so. So they are VERY dependent on oil producing nations, on cheapest possible oil... '

Well, I suppose the Chelsea Tractor drivers can always rely on raiding Scotland's oil resources to keep them running and selling it back to them at exhorbitant prices. But that's a whole other matter . . .

No comment.

Good point Expat about China. Do you know they are on actively seeking to build coal fuelled power atations? Coal is about as dirty a fuel as ther is. They are doing this because with high prices of oil and gas, coal is now financially attractive. Is about cheap energy, not clean.

If we want to change human consumption of fossil fuels, we need global initatives and someone to police them.