ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

And the League of Nations played a direct role in carving up the part of the Middle East that is now Israel/Palestine.

OK, yes, that's all been established.

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE NOW!?

anyone seen this yet?

Israel is conducting an investigation into the deaths, and has rejected accusations made by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan that the targeting of the UN position was "apparently deliberate".

Saadia quotes Moore's film Fahrenheit 9/11 as if it were some sort of documentary. Was her post tongue in cheek ?
Yes, Bush is not smart, and yes there are some very strange things around 9/11.
But F911 is not an honest analysis of facts, it is an overt political advert. Compared to Mr. Moore's earlier work it's not even a good advert, and recall that Mr. Bush won, even though millions saw it.

It is actively dishonest, and not funny either.

well I don't think Bush's moronic behaviour when he thought he was off-camera was faked. And I don't think the US companies' oil links with the Saudis were faked.

I don't see it as a conspiracy theory,i see it as fact.Why do people assume that Bush makes decisions?It's obvious he dosen't.I would suggest that some of us[including me]could probably do with learning more.But i haven't taken a moral high ground,i have watched the news like the rest of you,read the papers,listened to the news etc.I don't read the conspiracy theory type books.But i have to say that some of the comments on here are what i would have expected.I t will be interesting to see what happens...but i feel desperately sad for all the people there.
I shall leave the thread to the rest of you wise beings!

i don't agree with DC's analysis of USA's relationship with Israel. The NeoCons are in cahoots with right wing Christianity because it suits them politically, not they have some deep seated [right wing and nutty] faith in Christ. the NeoCons support Israel also because it suits them politically. Anyone who says they are not is in my opinion wilfully ignoring the facts and the history of the Israel/USA relationship, or just a bit naive, in my opinion.

shall I say in my opinion again?

yeah go on ruty .

the world has gone completely and utterly mental. peace talks without hizbollah???? hmmmm, so surprising that you can't reach a cease fire!

israel bombing UN observers: big white building with two letters 'U' 'N' written on the side being apologised for in terms of 'friendly fire' on newsnight atm. huh????

this is SO racist i'm sorry. so racist. arab life counts for f-all.

600,000 displaced. 390 lebanese civilians dead. 18 civilian deaths in israel (hmmmm....how many arab lives equate to one israeli life???)

and i'm most incensed of all by the Bush administration stating that a ceasefire would be 'meaningless'....oh right because hundreds of civilian lives count for nothing at all.

so so furious and so so saddened.

I fear that ruty has too good a grasp of reality for this to make sense
The evangeical right in America may each personally despise Jews (or not), but their delusional framework is clear that for the Raputre to occur, Jews have to be in control of Jerusalem.

As for Moore's film, yes Bush is dumb, but the nature of big business is that everyone's one or two steps away from everyone else. That may be good or bad, but it's not exceptional. I've slept with the person who sold Rich Branson's first shop, does that link him to me ?
I've personally been called a dick head by John Cleese, got drunk with John Harvey-jones son, eaten with Stephen Hawking's daughter, and got my degree from Princes Anne.
Yet not only am I not part of any conspiracy, I am not a person of any great significance. Same sort of "met a bloke who knew someone's son" applies to damn near everyone.

gosh dominiconner, what a fantastic arguement against any element of conspiracy: you got your degree from princess anne. that's it then, all conspiracy theorists get your coats.

frankly there is no conspiracy: there is naked and undisguised greed at the heart of the US's invasion of Iraq and the Neo-cons expansionists policies.

Yes, I've always rated John Cleese.

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I think that's a very cynical way of looking at it bloss. The reason they hide in civilian areas is because if they had a big training camp somewhere convenient for the Israelis to bomb them, the Israelis would er... bomb them and wipe them all out. The nature of guerilla warfare is that its participants have to duck and dive in and out of civilian areas. It's up to the state who is pursuing them, to decide how to deal with the fact that guerillas hide among civilians. And the Israeli state decides that very high civilian casualities are acceptable collatoral (? is that how you spell it?) damage. But to suggest on that basis htat the Israelis are somehow more compassionate about civilian casualties than their opponents, is wrong I think. If it were true, then the guerilla groups who operate in that area would not have any support from the civilians there. (The irony is that this latest skirmish will ensure that support for Hizbollah will be much higher this week, than it was a fortnight ago).

I knew I loved John Cleese

I just noticed the John Cleese thing. So what conspiracy are he and Princess Anne engaged in? I wasn't concentrating. It's because I'm an arts graduate, so you know how hard it is for me. Because I wasn't concentrating, I read at first that Dominiconnor had eaten Stephen Hawkins' daughter, which startled me a bit.

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Saw the news last night and was watching a terrified three-year-old girl writhing and screaming on a hospital bed as her injuries were being tended to - same age as my daughter. Got me thinking about all the children and babies whose parents are having to watch in situations like this - and how any conflicts and politics just dissolve into nothing in the hospital room where you are pinning down your screaming baby who is trying to escape from the doctors who as far as she understands are just really hurting her.

Makes me feel so impotent, sad and angry.

I saw that too morningpaper, awful to be in such a helpless situation where you have to watch your children suffering.

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Soph also 120 deaths in Gaza this week as Israel continues its "defence work" against Hamas there.
There is looking like there may be nearly close to something there. Hamas have reduced their rockets into Israel from 50 to 7 to 3 in the last few days testing this idea out. But Israel have kept pounding full strnegth, A one way ceasefire perhaps?
It is all just a pit of hatred and suspicion and mistrust.

The support for Hizbollah I suspect is mainly from Shia Muslims in the south of Lebanon, the majority in Lebabon is Sunni muslims, but obviously ther will be pockets all over.
There was some credence that to place your munitions and forces amongst high civilian areas would guard against destruction.. But either the Israelis don't care about civilian Lebanese or Hizbollah don't or the worst case scenario, neither cares...

but for goodness sake Lebanon has a West friendly leader - the people must be thinking, fat lot of good that does us. It is akin, as someone already said, to the UK bombing the hell out of Ireland after an IRA attack here. How bizarre and shocking would that be? Israel are deliberately punishing the people of Lebanon, if they were worried about their PR appearance they might be doing a little more to curb Lebanese casualties. I think Israel feel above moral reprehension - certainly the international community has seemed to accept their behaviour up till now. And what about the arms that the USA sent to Israel recently that went through Prestwick airport? Lovely.

Caligula - re civilian casualties - I disagree that it's 'up to the state who is pursuing them' to decide how to deal with guerillas hiding among civilians - it's up to the Lebenese government to protect its civilians (in the same way that Israel's governmnet is doing for its own civilians who are being constantly shelled in the north). Bloss's analysis of the relationship between casualties and propaganda is absolutely accurate.

And Sophable - in WWII, 10 Britons died to every 1 German - does that mean we shouldn't have fought Hitler's particular brand of extremism in the way that the Israeli's are fighting Hezbollah's?

wouldn't it be a more appropriate analogy if 1 British person had died for every 100 Germans? And how exactly are the Lebanese government supposed to protect their own people when they have far fewer arms than Israel? I don't think you'd be too happy if Saudi Arabia started supplying huge weapon deliveries to Lebanon.