ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

OOh Uwila you are singling me out to be cross with,how thrilling.I didn't realise you needed Bush to say'it's about the oil'.Sometimes we need to read between the lines,as it can be tricky to find out what is on the agenda...though in this case i would say it's blindingly obvious.
Have a nice day!

ps bit off the op but this link exlains the race for the Gulf og Guinea oil by the US

here

Until we all free ourselves from dependence on petroleum and petroleum products, we must consider ourselves part of the problem rather than the solution.

Anything else just smacks of hypocrisy b/c we here in the UK, too, benefit from cheap petroleum.

Fuel prices are rising fast in a hurry.

How much are you willing to pay?? Really and truly ask yourselves this before you start firing arrows.

expat but the US is equally dismissive of alternative energy sources
Almost all countries are woefully slow at thinking about the change to non fossil fuels though.
India is also going through a massive industrial revolution and uses dirty fuel too - same as Britain used to... Because it was cheap and plentiful.

Now now, Dooby. If you can't stand the heat don't light the fire.

I love to debate the oil industry and it's tangled web with world politics. But, that's probably better served on it's own thread...

Wasn't this debate about Israel and Lebanon. That's what I wanted to read. I want to know why Hezbollah acts the way it does. I want to know who supports them. We can talk about Hamas too, but more interested to learn about HEzbollah. And i want to know why Israel has chosen the course they have. Are they justified. Do they have other options. Or as lisalisa pointed out earlier is force the only language they understand? And who should do what to put an end to this horrible situation?????

Exactly, Piffle, this is a GLOBAL problem! And pointing fingers of blame is doing nothing for anyone.

Making changes in our everyday lives - as individuals - is, however small.

Even the act of voting, of campaigning, of minimising hte impact we have on the environment.

uwila brief history of Hizbollah here

hizbollah bio

I think some of the reasons are in this thread and it is all seemingly complicated.This tit for tat stuff with Israel and Hizzbollah has been going on for years.I do think oil plays a major part in this current conflict.

I am perfectly happy to point the finger at the US first and foremost, this does not mean that I conclude every other nation is blameless.
But the US is so transparent in its tactics of collaring the newest oil supplies in Africa, taking the wealth from the nation without a single penny back into the countries, I know they are colluded with by corrupt governments but this is despicable behaviour for a civilised nation to undertake.
Hence my happiness at finger pointing.

And what do you think of Putin and his tactics?

I am far from convinced of the oil connection. I think Bush has his faults, but the accusations of oil whilst they are plentiful are not true. How does America profit from high oil prices? I would think countries who own their oil companies profit much more. But America (and Britain) have independant oil companies (BP, Exxon, etc.).

Oh, yes, and let's talk about lovely Venezuela. Oh, and his buddy in Bolivia's renationalization stunt.

Btw, I agree that when big western companies go into underdeveloped places to extract their oil (or any other resouce) the local people shoud get a fair share of the weath. I believe, however, it is the local government who has failed them.

If anyone has seen Fahrenheit 911 they will know that a) Bush's intelligence levels are pretty low, and b) his whole family is part of an old boy network which is tied in with arms producers.

Some people benefit alot from perpetual turmoil in the Mideast - both from arms sales and defence contracts, and from control of oil supplies.

In the Arab-Israel conflict there is also the issue of water, which I don't know much about but according to my Politics lecturer at Uni, this is also a problem area.

At some point though Arabs do have to take charge of their own problems, but it is questionable how much success they can have when they have the world's biggest superpower constantly interfering.

Anyone who thinks Faenheit 911 is factual has no room to criticise Bush's intelligence. And, furthermore Saadia, I've been trying very hard to see both sides of this debate, including youor points. But, the anti-Amiercan slant youare proteaying make it very difficult for me to give your opinons a lot of credit.

I do not accept that Bush or any previous American president wants this conflict. It is not in American interest. It is nothing but horrific. I came here to learn something, but I can not entertain the notion that every bad thing on this Earth is primarily America's fault. Certainly not this one!

And I think accusations like this contribute to Americans siding with Israel.

And another thing, if we are going to talk about people who profit from controlling oil (and gas) supplies, we DEFINATELY need to bring Russia into this conversation. Russia is very willing to turn off the taps and send your oil prices soaring, thus trigggering a Western recession, which of course will lead to a world recession.

Roll on housing crash.... Okay, maybe not... but it isn't that far fetched.

Uwila you come across as 'pro-America'.
Have you really been trying hard to see both sides of this discussion?
I really don't think the USA sides with Israel because of various accusations.
I know a few people who are 'pro America'and if they are disagreed with,react like you have.
I have no problem if others disagree with me.I don't take it personally.
It's not a personal attack.

Of course I am pro America. It is a lovely place.

If fahrenheit 911 was a work of fiction, then surely there would be lawsuits pending?
Ok granted some claims were over exaggerated for shock effect but to deny the entire research as untrue is short sighted.
We are not talking about Russia and Putin as we were discussing the invasion of Lebanon and the Palestinain problem, neither of which have anything to do with Russia.
We are talking about the US role in the Middle East, in relation to their foreign policy vis a vis Israel/Lebanon/Palestine

Putin is a whole other kettle of fish.

Whatever you think about US does anyone really think they can solve the current crisis? Also I can't see all the fuss about what Blair says about things. I would have thought that the UK is totally powerless to influence events in any way unless they contributed troops to some sort of UN force.

Aren't there lawsuits pending against Michael Moore? I thought there were.

But that is just it,Piffle. America is being blamed for being the big bully who is only look out for some alleged oil interest. (still don't see the connection by the way). But, if we are to entertain this notion that the current conflict is about oil, then surely we have to talk about the other major oil players. And Russia is most certainly among them. As is Iran (alleged backers of Hezbollah). So why isn't Russia getting involved? Well, might be bad for their oil deals. Then again, I suppose they are in a sticky situation with their jewish population, huh?

Russia have stated they support and immediate ceasefire
Russia is not as dependent on oil as you might think btw. For such a large country
As far as I am concerned this current conflict is about Palestine. The continuing transgressions of Israel heaped upon Gaza (mostly but the West Bank too)
Hamas and Hizbollah are quite closely linked both were formed to defeat Israels occupation of their territories.

The oil link only came in because of the potential of this conflict to ignite the entire region into a supporting war.
The region produces a large and accessible proportion of the worlds crude oil.
So while the conflict is not about oil, it could well end up being a side effect from a regional war.
So from the op it is not about oil, but if you hypothesise a little about consequences, then you end up with some end games...

I am not anti American. I am anti much of their foreign policy ( and domestic at times but lets not go there on this thread)as are many Americans, certainly while I stayed in Baltimore and NYC I encountered no one who would speak up for Bush and when you consider who my dp works for and that it was work parties I came out pretty surprised.

This is a global matter, people!

All this bickering over who's at fault and the history of XYZ and blah blah blah just = more dead bodies.

Where do we go from here?

WHAT is the solution and who has the duty to put it in place - and whoever they are, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

All this labelling makes me truly sick, b/c when we label and generalise for whole nations and groups of people, we blur their faces, and they become less human to us. Then it's easy just to walk away and leave it to someone else - or no one else - b/c it's hard to be bothered.

Uwila were you educated in the US?

America could stop this attack on Lebanon tomorrow if they wanted to. All this talk of "emergence of a peace plan" by Condi is to buy Israel time.

The US and Israel both believe themselves to be above international law. Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib are both utterly shameful and I was reading yesterday on the BBC's news website that torture of Iraqi prisoners is routine. It's just that they talk so much about freedom and human rights.

The US supported Saddam, they engineered the Iraq/Kuwait Gulf War, they have invaded Iraq. This is a country of well educated people with good natural resources which could have been prosperous and successful if the US had not dabbled.

The US propped up the Shah in Iran, they funded the Taliban, their unquestioning support for Israel and constant vetoing of anti-UN resolutions must at least raise questions about their motives.

I think doobydoo is not really up to speed on geology, and this is confusing her grasp of politics.
Even if you believe the NeoCons are the source of all evil, why would they want Israel to invade Lebanon ?
It isn't an oil exporter. Trust me on this. It's pretty much worthless to any occupier.

Thus her logic as for this to be an oil driven matter is a bit murky to say the least.
It is true that Syria and Iran would have less money to fund their scuzzy terrorist groups without oil, but the underyling mass mental defect that we label "Islam" would do mad shit evewn if they were poor. One only has to lok at how oil-poor Moslem nations behave to see that.

Every time Israel murders more Arabs, or threatens someone, the oil regions get harder to keep anywhere vaguely near sane. I don't wish it harm, but if Israel fell into the sea, the Arabs and Persians would act notably less mad. It is a serious fly in the ointment.

Thus given that NeoCons are in league with hard line Christians, the only way I can construct a conspiracy is that they want Israel to piss off as many people as possible so it gets destroyed. Thus for the Christian nutters, there's millions less Jews, and Arabs can (more or less) peacefully sell their oil to the west.
But no plausible enemy can destroy Israel, unless it has nukes. Thus for this conspiracy to hold water you have to assume that the US has prodded Iran into acquiring them. By loudly threatening Iran, the US has made it politically impossible for Iran to do anything other than drive a weapons programme.
But back on planet Earth, this is simply a screw up by a weak leader of a coalition government, who naively believed that Mossad was as good as it used to be.
People will die, some will be orphaned, other lose limbs or sight, but nothing will change much as a result of this.