Abortion statistics

[musica]

Just read that one in five pregnancies nationally end in abortion, and in London it is one in THREE! Surely this is not good!

This is the relevant story

Tamum - Hang on a sec!!! My hospital have said that they do the 12 wk scan with the new equipment they can pick up all sorts of abnormalities at that point! They don't see the need for a later scan.

Please don't tell me I am effectively NOT having any scans at all!!!!

Message withdrawn

Don't panic M2T, that sounds better than here then. They may be able to do nuchal fold testing, and pick up other markers, but there are lots of things that don't show up on scans; as fio says, if you're going to have any kind of genetic testing it can't be done before 12.5 weeks for an amnio, plus the time taken for the results to come back.

Phew!! - Tamum

Twinkie - brave woman.... but I must say I agree.

M2T its the 20 week scan that shows any significant abnormalities. The reason I mentioned a CVS before was because if you know that genetic/chromosomal conditions run in the family you get this at about 15 weeks. With amino's it is usually done as a request because of the age of the mother/father or because something abnormal has shown up on the 20 week scan.

M2T, certain things can't be picked up at 12 weeks; spine, heart, brain actually nearly everything. I think you hospital is fobbing you off.

Twinkie, if thats how you feel do you also believe that the only methods of contraception should be condoms/diaphrgams? Every other kind stops/prevents a fertilised eg (so a conception has taken place) from implating.

tanum you beat me to it my blumin family with all their complicated genetics!

Fio2 - But my hospital has stopped the 20 wk scan for everybody now.

oh, I dont know it has been 2 1/2 years since I last had my 20 week scan. I can say my 12 week scan that was done at 14 weeks! was only a dating scan - they didnt really look at much.

They haven't done 20 week scans here for years as far as I'm aware; I certainly didn't get them for either of my pregnancies, and my ds is 9 now. The 12 week scan was just for dates then, they simply didn't offer fetal anomaly scans, so it's not necessarily just that they can now do everything at 12 weeks.

it must be to with better equipment nowadays M2T

Message withdrawn

Whether its right or wrong secur, a baby does not have ANY legal rights until it is born. If it did then abortion would have to be illegal full stop, no exceptions. Or you would have to legalise euthanasia, except that require (prior) consent in most places where it is legal, so that would provide for severely disabled babies/foetus to die either in utero or out.

Also if you give a foetus rights before birth, the right to life say then this opens a whole new can of worms. Any person giving a 1 day old baby a cigarette or drink would be prosecuted, but not if the baby is in utero. But if you recognise life as beginning from the moment of conception (in the sense that there can't be abortions and that the unborn babies life is a 'valuable' as the mothers) then you have to start prosecuting mothers who drink, smoke etc whilst baby is in utero for child abuse.

On this note has anyone else been following the case of Regina McKnight ?

Back again from lunch, work etc. Have read through the thread and still amn't convinced that abortion is (always) wrong. I'm not saying that it's always right either though, just that in some cases it is, for the woman (and possibly for the unborn child, although I know this will be contraversial) involved the best of a bad lot of options available. I also don't think that many women, despite the cases mentioned here, take the decision lightly. I certainly hope not.
As for the 20 week scan M2T, I think very few hosptials in Scotland have ever offered this as routine. In my last pregnancy six years ago, I practically had to beg my hospital (Simpsons in Edinburgh) to give me one after I had been ill and was concerned about the baby. This time also, I was told that only the early dating scan at 10 - 14 weeks was routine. Where are you having your baby by the way?

Well technically Twinkie your coil is possibly causing a kind of abortion every month as it stops either a conception implanting or makes the lining of your womb so thick that even if the egg has implanted you will begin to bleed. So perhaps the idea that life begins at conception is not strictly true?

(I'm not trying to attack btw just debate, so I hope this doesn't offend.)

Twinkie and MT2 I agree with what you both have been saying. It is soooo unpopular these days to express anti abortion views.The culture of selfishness prevails - pro 'choice' is just a veiled way of saying pro - me.The word 'termination'ought to be replaced with 'killing'or something equally direct and honest. I find it amazing how language can be manipulated to enable people to ignore the truth. And while I think of it,if a foetus isn't actually alive at a very few weeks, as some people seem to be saying, why is the ending of their life by abortion called a 'termination'? if the baby isn't alive, there is nothing to terminate, is there? or am I missing something?

Message withdrawn

Quick word about scans. they are all done for a specific reason. The nuchal fold scan at 11-13 weeks looks specifically at the nuchal fold and gives a risk factor for xsome abnormalities such as DS and Turners etc. At the same time they check to see where the intestines are (but I think they only move back inside around this time so I think they are often still outside) and have a general check for things like 4 chambers in the heart etc However there is a lot they cannot see at that stage- and can only be picked up later. I had nuchal scan + 20 week anomoly scan. They made a big point of saying that the 20 week scan was more for general problems (eg with kidneys) the nuchal was to get a specific risk factor.

I suspect we all agree that an option for termination is a necessary evil- on demand at an early stage, and for abnormalities at a later stage. The problem as I see it - is that there will always be a few people who see it an another form of contraception- you can't force people to understand that it is different. However you can't legislate against this without affecting those who really do have a 'need' for the termination for whatever reason.

Perhaps it all comes down to more sex education and more education in ethics.

FYI re 20 week scan where they look at all the details and measure everything etc, in Australia and Germany is absolutely standard. I have got a video of mine that I had done in Australia. My Obstetrician in Australia and here in Germany had scanning equipment in their surgery so I got scan's at every monthly appointment. It is just so reassuring. I even had one at 7 weeks, just because I was making myself crazy with irrational worry that the pregnancy was ectopic. There is no extra charges for the scans doen by the obstetrician - only for the 12week and the 20 week which are done by radiologists. The health system in the UK worries me.

Freddiecat among the pigeons....

Is it possible that the reason that many of us are so horrified by this is because we are mothers? I am now horrified that I even considered for a second having a termination.

I'm not really sure where I stand on the rights of the foetus. However I don't want the state to start dictating too much to individuals. It's a slipperly slope. I guess we would all agree that it is irresponsible to smoke during pregnancy but should it be illegal?

Personally I would like the state to provide much more guidance and support to women who are considering an abortion. I don't know what happens now but I think some counselling sessions and discussion of parenting and adoption. Women who go for second or more abortions (for choice reasons) maybe should be asked to pay something towards it???? 9th abortions should in no way be done at the state's expense. Why should we pay for this woman's irresponsible attitude? If you don't want to use contraception and don't want children it's quite simple - don't have sex!!

Agree totally Freddiecat. I was far less fussed about abortion before becoming a mother.

I do get very suspicious of very pro-life male activists though. Anyone else?

I hear what you are saying Twinkie, it such a murky ethical debate.

I remember being 16 and talking to my friends about taking the pill. We were in a cafe and a woman turned out to be listening in on our conversation. She then started to scream, and I mean scream, that every sperm is sacred and we should use condoms (my friend was going to use both as she was worried about pregnancy and STDs) or deal with the fact we were murderers. In our 16 year old state of maturity we started singing Monty Pythons 'Every sperm is sacred' She wasn't pleased.

Personally I have always been pro-choice but know that when it came to the wire I personally I could never have an abortion. But I will defend anothers right to one. (though not 9 )