Abortion statistics

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Just read that one in five pregnancies nationally end in abortion, and in London it is one in THREE! Surely this is not good!

This is the relevant story

So, BBM, you're arguing that if a woman knows she doesn't want a baby, she shouldn't ever have sex?

Miscarriage is extremely sad, painful and very traumatic for those who want a baby and I would never deny that. However, and at risk of offending, I still believe that the death of an embryo is not the same as that of a baby. If I wanted another child and miscarried at 10 weeks I would be sad - maybe even grief-stricken - because I wouldn't have a baby but it would not be the same as losing my born child. I just know it wouldn't. And I find it astonishing, personally, that anyone would say that a five week foetus was the same as a baby. I don't think the life of a four celled embryo is the same and of equal value as a child.

I'm sure I'll regret posting that....It wasn't designed to offend but it does go to the heart of this debate, surely?
And yes, I have had close friends who have had miscarriages.

Aloha, I agree entirely. I don't know much about the biology of conception (blastocysts etc) but it just makes perfect sense to me that losing a foetus at a very early stage is different to losing a baby that has already been born or even to losing one later on in pregnancy. Again, I don't want to offend or upset anyone who has had a miscarriage and maybe because I haven't I don't know what I'm talking about! but it just doesn't make sense to consider them the same thing except in the hopes and dreams of the mother.

Droile - excellent post.

Zebra - definitely not arguing that women shouldn't have sex! Women can have sex with anyone they want whenever they want. But - having sex will always carry the possibility of conceiving - however teeny that possibility may be. If this possibility would not be appropriate for a woman at particular point in her life, then she should consider very carefully whether taking that risk with such and such a person is such a great idea. Obviously if she hasn't got a problem with abortion then, what does it matter to her?

But, if abortion would be a difficult and heartwrenching decision to consider - as it seems to be for most women - then wouldn't it be better to avoid the situation in the first place for a few nights of fun?

Abstinence is a 100% effective form of contraception. Very archaic though
Just a thought.

To a degree I can I agree with you aloha. I would have been far more traumatised had I delivered a still birth than I was when I lost my baby/foetus (I'm a biologist so I understand the semantics too) at 12 weeks. I would have been more traumatised at losing a baby I had know in the world, than to lose a baby at birth. But anyone who has had a miscarrage can tell you that the loss is greater than losing a bundle of cells. What I lost was my child. Unformed, but much loved and wanted.

If you were happily married for a year and your dh was killed, would you expect less sympathy than if you had been married 2 years, or 3. There may be a degree of scale here, but the loss is still a loss.

My mother lost a child at 12 weeks, at home, and was terrified that people would think she had done it deliberatly. I have the greatest sympathy with all women who have had a termination. I don't believe that many of these are done without great thought and sadness. But I lost my baby. Sorry if that offends anyone who chose a termination. I had no choice, I saw my baby on the scan, it had arms, legs, a head, a spine but to my great sadness no heart beat. Don't belittle my loss to make others feel better.

I still remember the date that I lost my baby, thankfully it is (by great co-incidence) my dds bithday. But I would have remembered the day anyway.

Driole, I am so sorry about your miscarriages, I would have felt devastated if I had miscarried my little girl, and outraged if anyone had tried to deny that the preganancy was 'my baby'.

Having said that, I didn't feel that when I had a termination, and I think that it is a problem using language which is inevitably emotive on either side of the argumant, whether 'Blob' or 'Baby'. It is a blastocyst, and then an embryo and then a feotus. Then a baby, when born. As someone said earlier, life has begun at conception, living cells with both halves of the DNA, and the potential to become a baby, but calling the embryo a baby is about thinking of our baby to come. Of course that is what we do, and that should not be denied, that is the valid and real emotion behind the distress of miscarriage. But I do not think that that should be used as an argument against women who really, really do not want to be pregnant, and want the blastocyst, or embryo not to develop further.

BBM:
"...if abortion would be a difficult and heartwrenching decision to consider - as it seems to be for most women - then wouldn't it be better to avoid the situation in the first place for a few nights of fun? "

And if it's not just a few nights of fun...?
I think of a friend who got pregnant twice on the pill -- she aborted first time but couldn't face it 2nd time and had the baby. She was taking pill properly, but didn't work because she was also on antibiotics (this is before it was known AntiBs could interfere). She was in a stable relationship, but only 17. I think you discount the sheer raw power of sexual desire.

Very well said Droile.I can't remember all the details but aren't all the major life support systems in a foetus fully formed by 12 weeks gestation? I thought the rest of the pregnancy was a time of growth only, not developing 'new'
organs.A full term baby can only survive outside of the womb because someone (mother or other)feeds,keeps warm and protects it.

Openheart, Droile doesn't think that it should be used as a reason to deny those who don't want to be pregnant the right of a termination either. And neither do I. I am very much pro choice. What saddened me was that when I lost my baby I had no choice. Added to that grief, I was made to feel that I had to hide my loss to prevent the embarassment of others. How many people do you know who don't tell anyone they are pregnany untill the end of the 1st trimester 'just in case'? So in other words their loss is negated to save the embarassment of others.

Whe I lost my baby the GP said 'Oh well one in 4 end in miscarrage, it is very common'. Quite true, but every life ends in death, that doesn't stop us sympathising with those who have had a loss.

Of course a stillbirth is more traumatic. I've been known to take vociferous issue with those who treat women who've had a stillbirth in the same way as those who've miscarried. But the person you have lost remains the same, regardless of when you lose them. I dare say that the old phrase 'if women had glass tummies' applies.
The miscarriage association's newsletter carries numerous stories of women miscarrying at home and handling their babies themselves. Clinical waste it aint. You would be surprised at how beautiful and well formed the 'foetus' can be.
I don't want to offend anyone who has had a termination, but I don't think telling fairy stories is helpful. I think the mistaken belief that you can replace one baby with another, later one partially fuels the so-called 'convenience' abortions. Yes, you may have another baby later, at a better time, but it won't be 'that' baby - you can never put that person on hold. And with that, I'll say again that if someone needs to abort then they have the right to do it, I just wish people could be clearer about what exactly it is that they are doing.

Of course a stillbirth is more traumatic. I've been known to take vociferous issue with those who treat women who've had a stillbirth in the same way as those who've miscarried. But the person you have lost remains the same, regardless of when you lose them. I dare say that the old phrase 'if women had glass tummies' applies.
The miscarriage association's newsletter carries numerous stories of women miscarrying at home and handling their babies themselves. Clinical waste it aint. You would be surprised at how beautiful and well formed the 'foetus' can be.
I don't want to offend anyone who has had a termination, but I don't think telling fairy stories is helpful. I think the mistaken belief that you can replace one baby with another, later one partially fuels the so-called 'convenience' abortions. Yes, you may have another baby later, at a better time, but it won't be 'that' baby - you can never put that person on hold. And with that, I'll say again that if someone needs to abort then they have the right to do it, I just wish people could be clearer about what exactly it is that they are doing.

If semantics are really causing so much strife, then call them foetuses. But foetuses are precious and not one of them will ever come again. That's what I'm saying and it can't be denied. It's a question of assigning value to that being, whatever you call it. And the value I assign to your foetus is the same as I'll assign to it when it's born. Otherwise we get into a mess when we consider the lives and values of people who are not quite so developmentally sophisticated.

Maybe it's because I've studied embryology and know the miraculous complexity of those you think of as proto-babies. But whatever, I must admit that since becoming a mother, I've had my head turned badly and think of them all as little angels now. Tiny, but perfectly formed.

Droile - again thank you so much for your posts.

Zebra - definitely do not "discount the sheer raw power of sexual desire". I chose to wait until I was married at 23 to have sex with dh ( he waited too) - having had an 18 month engagement I can totally empathise with the raw power you're talking about - it can be quite overwhelming at times.

Shouldn't we therefore be empowering girls and women by giving them a choice before having to choose whether or not to have an abortion? Where is the right to say "no" or "not today"? As I said before, as far as I know, all contraception is fallible so why are we so surprised when it "lets us down"?

I agree that the social pressure to have sex is immense & wrong; I remember being ashamed of being 19 and still a virgin. And maybe things would be different if Grannies weren't so terrified of having to raise their grandchildren, too (I have relatives raising their grandchildren...) But I think most girls/women aren't having sex merely for brief kicks or because of social pressure. The question then becomes do we hold them responsible by 'having' to have the baby? As you say, any method of contraception can fail. I have hyperemesis in pregnancy; if I fall pregnant despite my best efforts to avoid it, should I 'have' to have the baby and endure that?

I do know people whose sex lives with husbands literally stopped because they were so terrified of getting pregnant again... LOL.

It is true that contraceptives can fail, but one in three't and that is the London figure for abortions. I would be far happier if abortions wern't needed. Most unwanted pregnancies happen because a contraceptive wans't used in the first place. I do think that abortion is needed, and can to a degree be considered a 'right', but I would be happier by far if people also considered their 'responsibility' to use appropriate contraceptive cover if they don't want to get pregnant. If you are adult enough to want to have sex you should be adult enough to plan your contraception.

Its not only contraception though if we are talking about casual encounters. What about STD's and HIV? HIV is far scarier than pregnancy.

Well, a proper debate. Some excellent posts (aloha/droile), some less so... oh yes, and some horribly judgemental, personal attacks. Nice.

For what it's worth, I am pro-choice. I doubt greatly that the majority of abortions are undertaken lightly but, when this is not the case, I suspect that the sort of "serial-terminators" that some of you describe would make the very worst sort of mothers. That said, I agree that the statistics are saddening. Better sex education is probably one way of reducing numbers - but I have to say I find the adoption arguement a curious one. If there are so many fantastic, potential parents out there wanting to adopt children how come there are so many children wanting to be adopted by fantastic parents? Let's deal with the unwanted children we already have, first eh?

willow2, a friend of mine has adopted a little girl who had possible cerebral palsy - turned out to be nothing - but my friend was bumped right up the list in her part of London because she was willing to adopt a child with 'problems', and one who wasn't a new baby. I supppose that's why there are so many waiting for homes.

my friend is a foster carer and she has to look after lots of special needs kids waiting for aoptive parents because they are harder to find homes for

sorry about typos!

Willow2, that's very true. It can be glib to say, 'Oh have the baby and have it adopted' because as you say, the 'care' system can be brutal and inhuman and you just don't know what would happen to your child. And you also don't know if your baby will be 'perfect', because if not, they are likely to linger around in foster homes and care homes for longer than anyone would like. I know adoption can be brilliantly successful and has been for people on these boards, but it's a bit of a lottery.

Driole and hmb: Thank you for being calm and non-judgemental in your replies to my points. In many senses I do agree with you, the one-offness of THAT feotus etc, but I think that once we accept 'a woman's right to choose' we are automatically in that murky water where people's benchmarks of what is and is not acceptable are different. For example, for me, abortion doesn't automatically lead to placing lesser value on the life of babies with disabilities, etc. Others accept abortion only for really traumatic circumstances, some agree with 'on demand' according to a woman's wish to be pregnant. The overwhelming majority baulk at termination beyond 12 weeks except in life or death cases. I really wanted to emphasise the very different experiences between an unwanted pregnancy and a very much wanted one, and how that affected my view of the feotus. Last time, it was very much a baby in my mind from day one. In my unwanted pregnancies it was an as yet unconscious (but live) developing embryo that I felt quite dispassionate about. The live-ness did mean that termination was not a decision I made at all lightly, but in the end it is not a decision I have regretted or feel shame about.