Abortion statistics

[musica]

Just read that one in five pregnancies nationally end in abortion, and in London it is one in THREE! Surely this is not good!

This is the relevant story

This is a tough thing to say, but I suspect someone's view of whether they would themselves be prepared to consider abortion has a lot to do with how fertile they consider themselves - like everything else in life it's down to supply and demand.

M2T - early abortion is considered to be non-surgical below 9/10 weeks.

I know it must be extremely difficult to give a child up for adoption!! But is that a good enough reason to just kill the baby instead??

Thanks Flamingo.

Would you want somebody else to make that decision for you, M2T?

What zebra?
I'm merely making the point that it is for selfish reasons that you would choose an abortion over and above having the baby adopted. It is NOT in the best interest to the child that it's terminated..... but in the best interest of the mother.

I am not getting into a debate about those in the 50s who were forced to have children adopted. Thats not the issue here. The issue is that for SOME the choice to abort comes all too easily as a few of these posts have shown.

But at 9-10 weeks you aren't killing a baby M2T -that's the languauge anti-abortionists use to make women who have abortions feel guilty. I see no real difference between taking the morning after pill and having an abortion that early. But do think that both should be a last resort.

And I think everybody should be forgiven for a mistake, but do despair of those people who go on having abortion after abortion. I would hav thought that having been caught out once they would learn to be a bit more careful.

Prufrock - I never mentioned only early abortions. What about abortions at 23 wks? THAT is killing a baby.

I think the "problem" with the statistics is not each individual woman's case, but the societal attitudes, namely, that it is not a big deal to abort (or less of a big deal than having a baby), that it is risk free emotionally and physically, and that being pregnant is a terrible thing which is only worth it if you want to bring up the child yourself, and that being a mother is not compatible with other things you might want in life, like career, personal interests, fashion, love life, social life. I used to be more tolerant, but after having a foetal scan at 6 weeks and seeing ds's heartbeat, I have reached the point where (like adultery and tax fraud) I would never try to argue a friend out of doing it, but I could never be the one to support her through it. It is very difficult to influence society's attitudes, so I think all you can do it concentrate on your own family; I often talk to ds about what I did when I was pregnant, about how much I enjoy being a parent, and how I believe that he will be a good father one day. I imagine that once he knows the facts of life I will also be teaching him about contraception and what responsibilities I think are associated with the choice to be sexually active.

I think abortions in 23 weeks is totally different from abortions in 8 weeks and therefore a different discussion. I didn't think it was legal at 23 weeks unless for very good reasons? Don't you have to give birth or have a c-section at 23 weeks ?

As I mentioned, my difficulties with the pro-abortion lobby is their claim that there is no reason why abortion shouldn't be used as a form of contraception. They frequently refer to abortion as the oldest method of contraception in the world and i can see the logic for describing it in this way.

I (like most of us) know people who have had abortions. The difference is the 3 women i know could easily have avoided their pregnancies. Simple "mistakes" like not using additional contraception after a vomiting bug when they were on the pill, choosing to wait and see after a condom split rather than getting the morning after pill. I also think the big difference between the m-a-p and an early abortion is that you never know whether or not the egg was fertilized and it's done so early that even if the egg had been fertilized the pregnancy may not have become established.

It was interesting to see Naomi Wolf trying to explain her change in feelings about abortion after she got pregnant with a wanted child.

Completely agree with you M2T and would strongly oppose the right to that on demand - unless there are serious medical problems which would severely limit the quality of life of the baby and so it could be felt they would be better not being born.

I think the problem is, life is a continuum... there is no clear cut off point where you can point your finger and say "not beyond that point".

I find this topic difficult. I am both pro-choice and anti-abortion (in that I don't think I could abort myself but I will defend every woman's right to choose - within limits).

Obviously at one end of the spectrum it's not an issue (is a man masturbating committing murder? does a woman kill viable life during every period? Obviously not). I start to get a bit squeemish at the point where the foetus could survive outside the womb (even if only a small chance) and think by that point it is a baby and probably should start to have some sort of rights to protect it.

In between it's all a bit hazy and all you can do is leave it to the woman's conscience. I think the vast majority of abortions are not taken lightly (whether before or after the event) and that should be respected. I do get upset at people who use them lightly as contraception, but then I think that is very hard to legislate against without making it extremely hard on those people who don't reach that stage without a lot of hard thought and soul searching.

9/10 weeks? As I've already said, I don't think I could personally do it, but I'm also fairly sure it's not a baby, "alive" or "murder" at that point. I would have concerns about a woman having multiple non-surgical abortions, but more for their own health, tbh.

Tricky subject, isn't it?

Fairymum - This is a discussion about abortion. I am still a bit confused as to where it was defined that this particular thread was purely referring to an early abortion???

As far as I know in a later abortion you take pills to stop placental function, which obviously kills the baby. Then you are induced. I think. But don't quote me I may be wrong!

Agree entirely Prufock.

Marialuisa, I don't know who you mean by the pro-abortion lobby? I am pro-choice, but certainly don't hold the views you quote. I think "pro-abortion" is a misleading word. I am pro-choice, but I agree that the numbers are far too high and the idea of an abortion does upset me. I am a mum and I have seen my babies at 12 weeks and I could never go through with it. I am not sure if I can be of good support to anyone going through with it either, but I try not to judge other peoples circumstances and I think there are many positive ways to work to get the figures down......

M2T, I didn't mean that you cannot discuss late abortions here, but I do think it's a very different discussion. I would also oppose that unless for good medical reasons. I know someone who terminated a pregnancy in 28 weeks for very good medical reasons and she was devastated. She had to give birth to the baby. So sad.

I know a girl that was told at her 20 wks scan that the baby had enlarged kidneys and other signs of a serious condition that would mean that he could not survive outside the womb. She was advised to abort at 23 wks which she did. She got photos, footprints and a certificate. She named him Thomas. After a PM at 2 separate hospitals it was concluded that although the baby did indeed have a kidney condition it was NOT life threatening and was treatable!!!!

How horrifying?? She has never gotten over it. She was seeking legal advice last I heard.

Sorry.... totally off the point, but fairymum's post reminded me of this.

Yes, that terrible. You don't make policies based on individual horror stories though....
It's a bit like saying you can never switch off someone's life support machine, because there are examples where people diagnosed as brain-dead have made a full recovery.

I think the picture can get a bit fuzzy on adoption nowadays. I know of someone who had a pregnancy terminated early (for good reasons aswell) She was 16 and she didnt tell her parents. She did consider adoption but knew her Mother would insist on bringing the child up instead. I am sure there are lots of young girls who would be pressurised nowadays into keeping the child in the family instead of adoption. I know of alot who have been forced into this aswell.

Fairymum - I'm not talking about policies or changing anything??? It was only a story that I thought I would post!

I think the laws for how many weeks into the pg you can still have an abortion should be reduced to 16wks.... but hey... I hadn't mentioned that.

So I wasn't suggesting anything so niave Fairymum, that the government should change their laws because of the girl I know.

I don't quite know what you read when you saw my post!!

Secur, the surgeon you mention who proceeded without anaesthetic becuase he disapproved of his patient is guilty of abuse and should be reported to the GMC and struck off. Would he operate on a man without anaesthetic? If you disapprove of women who have abortions, would you equally support surgeons carrying out liver transplants on alcoholics without anaesthetic? What gives us the right to judge other people? Who made us God? What no-one has mentioned in this thread are the many docs who try to prevent women exercising their right to chooose. People sometimes end up having late abortions because obstacles have been placed in their way. In some parts of the country the NHS only provides a tiny proportion of abortions because it's an easy target for spending cuts, forcing women who are often in very difficult circumstances to beg or borrow the money. NB I am the result of an unplanned pregnancy and I really don't buy this 'abortion is wrong because I might have been aborted line'. So what? If my mother had never met my father I wouldn't exist either!

No, my point was general. I think we are all horrified by beauticians having 9 abortions, but it's a bit "tabloid newspaper" to argue for or against by such extreme and I hope rare examples.

16 weeks? In Sweden it is 12 weeks. It hadn't crossed my mind it was more here in the UK......I think there is an argument that they think babies start feeling pain sometime around 14 weeks and that's why an abortion should be made before.

Evansmum - You have kinda contradicted yourself there. "Who made us God?"

EXACTLY!!! Why should we get to choose whether a child lives or dies.... interesting that you object more to this woman feeling pain than the fact that she aborted 3 of her children! Hmmm.....

Also your point about your Mum and Dad never meeting?? Then your life would never have been created to terminate!!!! So no real relevance there.